RE: N24 liveblog: race day

[WeirdNeville]

Mavican said:

Couldn't believe what happened to that Porsche at the end.

DOes anyone know WHY it happened? I just didn't get the decision making.... It was beating the Merc, it slowed then stopped as it approached the line, letting the Merc past, then the Clio collected it... What was the tactics/mistake at play?!

[cpufreak]

WeirdNeville said:

DOes anyone know WHY it happened? I just didn't get the decision making.... It was beating the Merc, it slowed then stopped as it approached the line, letting the Merc past, then the Clio collected it... What was the tactics/mistake at play?!

It didn't have enough fuel for another full lap of the 'ring. So slowed in order to cross the line after 16:00, and thus finish.

The Manthey car was right on the left side of the track, there was plenty of space for the clio to be, but I suspect the driver took eyes off where they were going for a second.

I was right across the track from it, was looking on in horror.

[Gorbyrev]

Great coverage and thanks for the heads up about the Audi TV live stream link. That was superb and got a good look at it before heading to Church. Picked it up coming back - what a great idea. The helicopter footage really helped get the action around the Ring. Enjoyed the section around 1pm when they followed the A8 for a while. Inspired choice for a sturdy platform! And who was running an Opel Manta? Kicked off a conversation (a good handful of petrolheads at my Church) about the GT/E and why so many of them were yellowy orange. Happy journey home and thanks for bringing the endurance race to life.

[Dan Trent]

freedman said:

You might want to correct the names of the winning driver crew

"one for the winning #3 car's crew Marc Basseng, Christopher Mies, Rene Rast and Frank Stippler"

Winning crew was actually Basseng, Haase, Stippler and Winkelhock

Ah yes, apologies for that - grabbed wrong crib sheet and in the midst of fielding all the calls from people the other side of the track saying "did you see what the hell just happened!" put the original line-up in by mistake. Long day! Corrected, either way.

[WeirdNeville]

cpufreak said:

WeirdNeville said:

DOes anyone know WHY it happened? I just didn't get the decision making.... It was beating the Merc, it slowed then stopped as it approached the line, letting the Merc past, then the Clio collected it... What was the tactics/mistake at play?!

It didn't have enough fuel for another full lap of the 'ring. So slowed in order to cross the line after 16:00, and thus finish.

The Manthey car was right on the left side of the track, there was plenty of space for the clio to be, but I suspect the driver took eyes off where they were going for a second.

I was right across the track from it, was looking on in horror.

Thanks for clearing that up, it wasn't too clear and the Radio LeMans commentors seemed none the wiser either.

Epic race, I watched the first few and last few hours and saw more drama and excitement than a seasons worth of F1! I was there a few years back and really want to go again now.

[freedman]

cpufreak said:

It didn't have enough fuel for another full lap of the 'ring. So slowed in order to cross the line after 16:00, and thus finish.

The Manthey car was right on the left side of the track, there was plenty of space for the clio to be, but I suspect the driver took eyes off where they were going for a second.

I was right across the track from it, was looking on in horror.

Something not quite right about the whole episode

The Manthey car slowed dramatically, but it still appears to cross the finish line before 16:00, so how was it ever going to be classified as a finisher?

Shocking from the Clio driver irrespective

[freedman]

Interesting to see the footage from the Manthey garage

Body language looks like shows they knew there was a problem was a problem with the car before the Clio hit it (looks like it could have just run dry)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znWkJuCrLJc

[ravon]

Just as a point of interest, does anybody know if, as is usually the case the race organisers placed additional performance penalties ( fueling restrictions, engine air flow restrictions, weight penalties, wing reductions ) on the Manthey Porsches just before the start of the race? Historically the authorities have been so desperate for an Audi victory, they constantly impose more stringent "performance equalisers " on the Porsches.

[freedman]

ravon said:

Just as a point of interest, does anybody know if, as is usually the case the race organisers placed additional performance penalties ( fueling restrictions, engine air flow restrictions, weight penalties, wing reductions ) on the Manthey Porsches just before the start of the race? Historically the authorities have been so desperate for an Audi victory, they constantly impose more stringent "performance equalisers " on the Porsches.

Not 'just' before, but they placed additional restrictions on teh 911's by slowing their reuelling rate etc

Hence the factory did not officially support the Manthey entry this year, bar drivers (which is why it didnt run in its usual green/yellow livery)

[cpufreak]

With the balance of performance.

last year:
http://adac.24h-rennen.de/uploads/media/BOP_24_h_2...


Audi R8 LMS: 1350KG, 120 litre tank, 2x 40.5mm restrictors, 527 hp
Porsche GT3 R: 1250kg, 100 litre tank, 1x45mm restrictor, 478hp
or Porsche GT3 R 1300kg, 110 litre tank, 1x 50mm restrictor, 504hp
Mercedes SLS: 1350kg, 125 litre tank, 2x34.2mm restrictors, 520hp
BMW Z4 1250KG, 100 litre tank, 1x50mm restrictor, 474hp
OR BMW Z4 1300kg, 110 litre tank, 1x70mm restrictor 499 hp
Porsche GT3 RSR 1300KG, 110 litre tank, 2x 30mm restrictors, 430hp



this year:

http://www.24h-rennen.de/uploads/media/BoP_24_h_19...


Audi R8 LMS: 1300kg, 120 litre tank, 2x 43.5mm restrictors, 538 hp
OR Audi R8 LMS Ultra 1325kg, 125 litre tank, 2x 43.5 mm restrictors, 538 hp
Porsche GT3 R: 1250kg, 100 litre tank, 1x45mm restrictor, 478hp
or Porsche GT3 R 1300kg, 110 litre tank, 1x 50mm restrictor, 504hp
Mercedes SLS: 1340kg, 125 litre tank, 2x35.2mm restrictors, 530hp
BMW Z4 1250KG, 100 litre tank, 1x70mm restrictor, 495hp
OR BMW Z4 1300kg, 110 litre tank, 1x80.6mm restrictor 510 hp
Porsche GT3 RSR: 1300kg, 105 litre tank, 2x29.7mm restrictors, ~420hp



So Audi had 10 more hp, and either 50kg less and same fuel tank, or 25kg less and 5 litres more fuel.

SLS benefited a little too - 10KG less, and 10HP more.
BMW Z4 had a little more power, but is otherwise the same.

However the Porsche's restrictions for the GT3 R are the same... and these are the restrictions which caused Manthey to end up running an RSR instead last year! Howerver the RSR was further restricted to make it less competitive this year - and thus not an option.

The fuel flow is also set, so that despite the Porsche taking 100 litres instead of 125 litres for the Audi, they take the same time to refuel.

[cpufreak]

freedman said:

Something not quite right about the whole episode

The Manthey car slowed dramatically, but it still appears to cross the finish line before 16:00, so how was it ever going to be classified as a finisher?

Shocking from the Clio driver irrespective

because it was going to do a very slow lap - and had enough fuel for that

Porsche press release said:

Romain Dumas fought off attacks from the trailing Mercedes. Just before the finish line he had to brake because he was several seconds off the 24 hours and he did not have enough fuel onboard to drive another fast race lap. After crossing the finish line, the engine died and could not be restarted immediately. Unfortunately, another driver did not see the 911 standing on the side of the track and hit the rear at high speed. This meant that the Wochenspiegel 911 could not complete the last lap and hence was not classified.

[Oddball RS]

Fix, in other words.

"If the iQ isn’t your thing, what about the 320hp Gazoo Racing GT86 which makes its public debut here, looking ever so much like Toyota’s potential answer to a 911 GT3. Albeit one that says the hell with natural aspiration and hello twin charger technology."

I love this statement.

[freedman]

cpufreak said:

freedman said:

Something not quite right about the whole episode

The Manthey car slowed dramatically, but it still appears to cross the finish line before 16:00, so how was it ever going to be classified as a finisher?

Shocking from the Clio driver irrespective

because it was going to do a very slow lap - and had enough fuel for that

Porsche press release said:

Romain Dumas fought off attacks from the trailing Mercedes. Just before the finish line he had to brake because he was several seconds off the 24 hours and he did not have enough fuel onboard to drive another fast race lap. After crossing the finish line, the engine died and could not be restarted immediately. Unfortunately, another driver did not see the 911 standing on the side of the track and hit the rear at high speed. This meant that the Wochenspiegel 911 could not complete the last lap and hence was not classified.

Still doesnt sound right somehow.

So he needed to do a slow lap to get to the finish, thats fine, but that doesnt mean he needed to come to a stop at the line and then drive around again.
Why not just back off and run at slow speed around the lap, seems no reason to stop the car and have to restart it?

[thewheelman]

What a great weekend, first Chelsea win the cup, & now some sexy racing cars to enjoy looking at

[BSC]

freedman said:

Still doesnt sound right somehow.

So he needed to do a slow lap to get to the finish, thats fine, but that doesnt mean he needed to come to a stop at the line and then drive around again.
Why not just back off and run at slow speed around the lap, seems no reason to stop the car and have to restart it?

The Porsche no. 11 had NOT enough fuel to complete another lap. Knowing this the box crew ordered to stop BEFORE the finish line and to cross it after 16:00 CET in order to complete the race even if that meant to forgo the position to the SLS without fighting.

[Joe911]

cpufreak said:

So Audi had 10 more hp, and either 50kg less and same fuel tank, or 25kg less and 5 litres more fuel.

SLS benefited a little too - 10KG less, and 10HP more.
BMW Z4 had a little more power, but is otherwise the same.

However the Porsche's restrictions for the GT3 R are the same... and these are the restrictions which caused Manthey to end up running an RSR instead last year! Howerver the RSR was further restricted to make it less competitive this year - and thus not an option.

The fuel flow is also set, so that despite the Porsche taking 100 litres instead of 125 litres for the Audi, they take the same time to refuel.

I talked to Olaf Manthey about this - he was pretty mad. They were smart not to blatantly penalise the GT3-R's - but instead gave a gift to the Audi's.

Why should the 911 - which is by far the most efficient engine (and the smallest with the least cylinders) - have a fuel filler restrictor tighter than the Audi's ... it's just not a level playing field. I'm sure if Porsche built a much thirstier engine they could get more power/torque too - if Audi don't want to spend so long in the pits, then build a more efficient engine!

(yes, I am biased)

[ravon]

Have to say as a multiple Audi purchaser, this campaigning to bend the rules in their favour doesn't encourage me to support the brand, and to a large degree nullifies the "victory". It's a little like their inevitable "victory" at the upcoming Le Mans this year, they have the field to themselves, so pretty hollow.

I'm also a Manthey fan, so admit to some bias !

[BSC]

The balance of performance IMHO worked pretty well as in qualifying the leading ten cars were within three seconds. Refuelling took about the same time for every car. So there was an even playing field. No bending the rules for any competitor.

That is the character and goal for balance of performance: making it possible to win the race for as many different cars as possible.

[freedman]

BSC said:

The Porsche no. 11 had NOT enough fuel to complete another lap. Knowing this the box crew ordered to stop BEFORE the finish line and to cross it after 16:00 CET in order to complete the race even if that meant to forgo the position to the SLS without fighting.

Welll they made a big mess of that then, as the car crossed the finish line before 16:00 and the Clio hit it

[freedman]

BSC said:

The balance of performance IMHO worked pretty well as in qualifying the leading ten cars were within three seconds. Refuelling took about the same time for every car. So there was an even playing field. No bending the rules for any competitor.

That is the character and goal for balance of performance: making it possible to win the race for as many different cars as possible.

The rules wer bent, by the organisrs, to ensure Audi had the best chane of success

Its happened before, and no doubt will again (usually to the detriment of Porsche, which is why the factory refused to run this year)