RE: Dany Bahar suspended
Discussion
mrclav said:
No need to patronise, I obviously know the story and while we're here let's get something straight - Mr. Dean is primarily known as an extremely successful music producer before being known as a rapper and he is actually a car fanatic, basically a sort of hip-hop version of Jay Kay. So again I ask, what's your problem with him? Has he mis-appropriated Lotus funds like Mr. Bahar appears to have done?
He's styled an Evora (which I think is done in quite good taste) and is basically being paid to make sure he puts Lotus cars in his music videos and does the same for his friends in the industry - it's a smart strategy really. Hip hop has an impact on global pop culture that is startling at times, whether you want to accept it or it - if you know what the word 'bling' means, you prove this point.
I always hear people like you talking about how you don't want rappers/drug-dealers/chavs/whatever-other-boring-stereotype-you-can-mention (aka those who actually have money to afford one) to buy Lotus cars because apparently doing so damages the precious image of the brand not to mention causing Colin Chapman to spin in his grave but I want to know who you think SHOULD (and more importantly, will) buy them...
To be fair though, it unfortunately looks very bad for Hethel should the allegations against Mr. Bahar are proven to be true...
Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you.He's styled an Evora (which I think is done in quite good taste) and is basically being paid to make sure he puts Lotus cars in his music videos and does the same for his friends in the industry - it's a smart strategy really. Hip hop has an impact on global pop culture that is startling at times, whether you want to accept it or it - if you know what the word 'bling' means, you prove this point.
I always hear people like you talking about how you don't want rappers/drug-dealers/chavs/whatever-other-boring-stereotype-you-can-mention (aka those who actually have money to afford one) to buy Lotus cars because apparently doing so damages the precious image of the brand not to mention causing Colin Chapman to spin in his grave but I want to know who you think SHOULD (and more importantly, will) buy them...
To be fair though, it unfortunately looks very bad for Hethel should the allegations against Mr. Bahar are proven to be true...
One of the most sensible posts I have ever read on PH.
It always annoy me the snobbish behaviour of some people when it comes to certain marques of cars which they seem so dearly protective of; yet haven't actually put their hand in the own pocket to support.
Hellbound said:
People are different the world over, it would be suicide to cater to one, very specific demographic.
My point precisely; it's just that you summed up what I was trying to say far more concisely!Hellbound said:
If he really cared about the brand, and those who own Lotus had good reason to suspend him, he should step down. In the event that he does resign, the sooner they can find/poach a replacement, the better.
Agreed 100% on this point.ikonic said:
It always annoy me the snobbish behaviour of some people when it comes to certain marques of cars which they seem so dearly protective of; yet haven't actually put their hand in the own pocket to support.
I really want to hear what andyroo, or any other nay-sayer/brand-snob, has as a genuine answer to my question. Who should be buying Lotus/Bentley/Aston-Martin/(insert your favourite brand here) cars if not the people they so obviously despise?mrclav said:
I really want to hear what andyroo, or any other nay-sayer/brand-snob, has as a genuine answer to my question. Who should be buying Lotus/Bentley/Aston-Martin/(insert your favourite brand here) cars if not the people they so obviously despise?
A fair enough question. I've never put my hand in my pocket to buy a Lotus.
But I remember when I was a teenager I used to consider Lotus in the same breath as Ferrari.
In fact I decided when I was 15 that I wanted a Lotus Esprit Turbo more than I wanted a Ferrari 328.
What happened?
Lotus stopped making genuine supercars, and started making glorified Mazda MX5's.
No longer were they on my bedroom wall.
Then along came Sauce Boast, whatever that is, and Lotus went from being questionable to a complete joke.
Gee I'm glad that when I could finally afford my dream car, after much hard work, I bought a Ferrari instead of a Lotus.
That's your answer.
Edited by Steve12NG on Saturday 26th May 16:47
ked. Like i said on another thread, where is lotus cars cash cow.
Porsche will stick it name on any tat (cayanne) and sell it to the highest bidder, lotus needed a car that could sell out the brand while concentrating on building proper cars, that is the only way to survive.
I bet porsche make a large chunk on there profit on the options that people will pay for, and this is the stuff that keeps the company going.
Porsche will stick it name on any tat (cayanne) and sell it to the highest bidder, lotus needed a car that could sell out the brand while concentrating on building proper cars, that is the only way to survive.
I bet porsche make a large chunk on there profit on the options that people will pay for, and this is the stuff that keeps the company going.
mrclav said:
No need to patronise, I obviously know the story and while we're here let's get something straight - Mr. Dean is primarily known as an extremely successful music producer before being known as a rapper and he is actually a car fanatic, basically a sort of hip-hop version of Jay Kay. So again I ask, what's your problem with him? Has he mis-appropriated Lotus funds like Mr. Bahar appears to have done?
He's styled an Evora (which I think is done in quite good taste) and is basically being paid to make sure he puts Lotus cars in his music videos and does the same for his friends in the industry - it's a smart strategy really. Hip hop has an impact on global pop culture that is startling at times, whether you want to accept it or it - if you know what the word 'bling' means, you prove this point.
I always hear people like you talking about how you don't want rappers/drug-dealers/chavs/whatever-other-boring-stereotype-you-can-mention (aka those who actually have money to afford one) to buy Lotus cars because apparently doing so damages the precious image of the brand not to mention causing Colin Chapman to spin in his grave but I want to know who you think SHOULD (and more importantly, will) buy them...
To be fair though, it unfortunately looks very bad for Hethel should the allegations against Mr. Bahar are proven to be true...
No patronisation intended, I genuinely assumed you didn't know. In my opinion, the Swizz Beatz connection is far too far removed from the brand to make any sense. I think many people who can afford these cars will probably never have heard of him anyway, so it smacks doubly of desperation.He's styled an Evora (which I think is done in quite good taste) and is basically being paid to make sure he puts Lotus cars in his music videos and does the same for his friends in the industry - it's a smart strategy really. Hip hop has an impact on global pop culture that is startling at times, whether you want to accept it or it - if you know what the word 'bling' means, you prove this point.
I always hear people like you talking about how you don't want rappers/drug-dealers/chavs/whatever-other-boring-stereotype-you-can-mention (aka those who actually have money to afford one) to buy Lotus cars because apparently doing so damages the precious image of the brand not to mention causing Colin Chapman to spin in his grave but I want to know who you think SHOULD (and more importantly, will) buy them...
To be fair though, it unfortunately looks very bad for Hethel should the allegations against Mr. Bahar are proven to be true...
EDIT: Just to add, having seen some of the other comments about snobbery, my opinion isn't based on that, it's based on the undertaking of the Swizz Beatz saga. Range Rover, Audemars Piguet, Burg al Arab, all end up being associated with hip hop artists because they genuinely fit that brand. The association evolves, it grows, it comes across as natural. Lotus, the race winning, technical experts, who build cars that are borderline track day specials, do not, as they stand, fit that section of the luxury arena. Perhaps if Bahar had developed his idea of the brand, successfully released his new cars, which then appealed to a new market such as the hip-hop crowd, then the link might fit, but even then, getting a record producer to help design the car is nearly as desperate as the press release I had in my inbox the other day where Girard Perregaux had given Archbishop Desmond Tutu a brand new gold watch...
Edited by andyroo on Saturday 26th May 17:58
The company is looking increasingly likely to end up sold, or the car side of things discontinued
It's a shame, but my impression is DRB have no clue on Lotus, and it just dropped on there doorstep via there Proton Buyout
Lotus really need to be part of a large carmaker with the knowhow of how to sell cars successfully. Someone like Toyota would be ideal as they have no real high end sports car division, and they know how to build cars and sell them profitably
Pipe dreams though, things really look like there going to end badly for Lotus this time
It's a shame, but my impression is DRB have no clue on Lotus, and it just dropped on there doorstep via there Proton Buyout
Lotus really need to be part of a large carmaker with the knowhow of how to sell cars successfully. Someone like Toyota would be ideal as they have no real high end sports car division, and they know how to build cars and sell them profitably
Pipe dreams though, things really look like there going to end badly for Lotus this time
ikonic said:
It always annoy me the snobbish behaviour of some people when it comes to certain marques of cars which they seem so dearly protective of; yet haven't actually put their hand in the own pocket to support.
There's a difference between snobbish behaviour and brand syndication that clearly doesn't fit. Bahar is promoting Lotus as a luxury manufacturer with the whole Swizz Beatz thing, when it isn't. It's what he intended with his new line-up of cars, but he kinda has to wait 'til those cars are in show rooms before he tries to reposition the company as a luxury car manufacturer. The cart is firmly before the horse in his vision, but it seems like we will never see what would have become of it anyway.I can see what Bahar is trying to do, particularly when hip hop is a big influence on Asian culture (where the money is), but he's over-egged the pudding somewhat.
EDIT: Plus I have owned Lotus products in my time, thank you
Steve12NG said:
A fair enough question.
I've never put my hand in my pocket to buy a Lotus.
But I remember when I was a teenager I used to consider Lotus in the same breath as Ferrari.
In fact I decided when I was 15 that I wanted a Lotus Esprit Turbo more than I wanted a Ferrari 328.
What happened?
Lotus stopped making genuine supercars, and started making glorified Mazda MX5's.
No longer were they on my bedroom wall.
Then along came Sauce Boast, whatever that is, and Lotus went from being questionable to a complete joke.
Gee I'm glad that when I could finally afford my dream car, after much hard work, I bought a Ferrari instead of a Lotus.
That's your answer.
Er, ok - it's an answer alright but not to the question I asked. Let's see now...I've never put my hand in my pocket to buy a Lotus.
But I remember when I was a teenager I used to consider Lotus in the same breath as Ferrari.
In fact I decided when I was 15 that I wanted a Lotus Esprit Turbo more than I wanted a Ferrari 328.
What happened?
Lotus stopped making genuine supercars, and started making glorified Mazda MX5's.
No longer were they on my bedroom wall.
Then along came Sauce Boast, whatever that is, and Lotus went from being questionable to a complete joke.
Gee I'm glad that when I could finally afford my dream car, after much hard work, I bought a Ferrari instead of a Lotus.
That's your answer.
First, you compare Lotus to Ferrari, which would imply you see Ferrari as some sort of yard-stick in the first place.
Then you say that Lotus started making glorified Mazda MX5's - you're a bit mixed up there mate, it's actually Mazda who started making glorified Elans; it's well a well known fact that Mazda used it as a yardstick when they designed the MX-5.
No longer were posters on your bedroom wall? Frankly, if you were a grown man with pictures of cars on your bedroom wall, I'd be worried for you...
Name calling? Really? Swizz Beatz is a stage name, it's the media who perpetually call him that and it's as facetious as it is boring. As I said before, you may not like Mr. Dean or what he's about but like it or not you ARE influenced by the genre of music he makes and if he influences other people to buy into the brand then more power to him. Lotus went from being questionable to being a complete joke you say? Show me the evidence to support your statement please. As far as I'm concerned Mr Bahar at present is doing more than enough to make that a reality, not Mr Dean.
Finally you bought a Ferrari instead of a Lotus. I congratulate you on your choice, it's a fine one sir! However, why didn't you buy that Esprit Turbo you had on your wall at 15 and live the dream?
Again, I ask the question - who do you think should be buying Lotus cars?
Edited by mrclav on Saturday 26th May 18:42
900T-R said:
I'd say 'who is likely to buy a Lotus' would be a rather more relevant question than 'who should buy Lotus cars'.
You've hit the nail on the head, and it's exactly the same problem that Bahar faced too. Average people won't buy Lotii in the numbers needed because they are too niche, rich people won't by Lotii either because they aren't a luxury product. Bahar was trying to make Lotus a luxury product, but too quickly, and too forcedly.andyroo said:
No patronisation intended, I genuinely assumed you didn't know. In my opinion, the Swizz Beatz connection is far too far removed from the brand to make any sense. I think many people who can afford these cars will probably never have heard of him anyway, so it smacks doubly of desperation.
EDIT: Just to add, having seen some of the other comments about snobbery, my opinion isn't based on that, it's based on the undertaking of the Swizz Beatz saga. Range Rover, Audemars Piguet, Burg al Arab, all end up being associated with hip hop artists because they genuinely fit that brand. The association evolves, it grows, it comes across as natural. Lotus, the race winning, technical experts, who build cars that are borderline track day specials, do not, as they stand, fit that section of the luxury arena. Perhaps if Bahar had developed his idea of the brand, successfully released his new cars, which then appealed to a new market such as the hip-hop crowd, then the link might fit, but even then, getting a record producer to help design the car is nearly as desperate as the press release I had in my inbox the other day where Girard Perregaux had given Archbishop Desmond Tutu a brand new gold watch...
Thanks for the answer. I actually asked the same question - who do you think should and more importantly will buy them? What I think you grossly underestimate is the influence some-one like Mr Dean and his ilk have on people around the world. If you can accept Asia is where the money is at and that hip-hop culture is accepted over there then how is the pudding being over-egged? Lotus are a business after all, a small business that needs people to buy the products much more than some-one like VAG. In my opinion, you're basing your ideas of branding on what you know hiphop to mean to you; that's not quite how it works.EDIT: Just to add, having seen some of the other comments about snobbery, my opinion isn't based on that, it's based on the undertaking of the Swizz Beatz saga. Range Rover, Audemars Piguet, Burg al Arab, all end up being associated with hip hop artists because they genuinely fit that brand. The association evolves, it grows, it comes across as natural. Lotus, the race winning, technical experts, who build cars that are borderline track day specials, do not, as they stand, fit that section of the luxury arena. Perhaps if Bahar had developed his idea of the brand, successfully released his new cars, which then appealed to a new market such as the hip-hop crowd, then the link might fit, but even then, getting a record producer to help design the car is nearly as desperate as the press release I had in my inbox the other day where Girard Perregaux had given Archbishop Desmond Tutu a brand new gold watch...
Oversized chrome rims on cars were not popular until rappers put them in hip-hop videos.
Cristal was not the champagne of choice until rappers started drinking it in hip-hop videos.
No-one cared about what headphones they wore until Dr. Dre, Jimmy Iovine and Monster came up with Beats headphones and put them in hip-hop videos - catch my drift?
Trends don't make hip-hop, hip-hop sets the trends. Hence why, in my opinion, Mr. Bahar's plan is not as far-fetched as you'd think; if rappers say it's cool, are seen putting the cars in their videos or driving around in them a lot of people will think it's cool enough to actually want to buy one. Your point about the type of people who can afford a Lotus is somewhat moot to me, they're the same people who can afford a Mercedes Benz, Bentley, Ferrari etc and who buy into those brands precisely because they've seen people like him driving them! The way I see it all brands have to start somewhere for them to be recognisable and if the current demographic isn't enough to support the brand at present then it makes total sense to expand into new territory.
Edited by mrclav on Saturday 26th May 18:41
mrclav said:
Er, ok - it's an answer alright but not to the question I asked. Let's see now...
First, you compare Lotus to Ferrari, which would imply you see Ferrari as some sort of yard-stick in the first place.
Then you say that Lotus started making glorified Mazda MX5's - you're a bit mixed up there mate, it's actually Mazda who started making glorified Elans; it's well a well known fact that Mazda used it as a yardstick when they designed the MX-5.
No longer were posters on your bedroom wall? Frankly, if you were a grown man with pictures of cars on your bedroom wall, I'd be worried for you...
Name calling? Really? Swizz Beatz is a stage name, it's the media who perpetually call him that and it's as facetious as it is boring. As I said before, you may not like Mr. Dean or what he's about but like it or not you ARE influenced by the genre of music he makes and if he influences other people to buy into the brand then more power to him. Lotus went from being questionable to being a complete joke you say? Show me the evidence to support your statement please. As far as I'm concerned Mr Bahar at present is doing more than enough to make that a reality, not Mr Dean.
Finally you bought a Ferrari instead of a Lotus. I congratulate you on your choice, it's a fine one sir! However, why didn't you buy that Esprit Turbo you had on your wall at 15 and live the dream?
Again, I ask the question - who do you think [i]should[/] be buying Lotus cars?
I'll try to answer your post as it appears. First, you compare Lotus to Ferrari, which would imply you see Ferrari as some sort of yard-stick in the first place.
Then you say that Lotus started making glorified Mazda MX5's - you're a bit mixed up there mate, it's actually Mazda who started making glorified Elans; it's well a well known fact that Mazda used it as a yardstick when they designed the MX-5.
No longer were posters on your bedroom wall? Frankly, if you were a grown man with pictures of cars on your bedroom wall, I'd be worried for you...
Name calling? Really? Swizz Beatz is a stage name, it's the media who perpetually call him that and it's as facetious as it is boring. As I said before, you may not like Mr. Dean or what he's about but like it or not you ARE influenced by the genre of music he makes and if he influences other people to buy into the brand then more power to him. Lotus went from being questionable to being a complete joke you say? Show me the evidence to support your statement please. As far as I'm concerned Mr Bahar at present is doing more than enough to make that a reality, not Mr Dean.
Finally you bought a Ferrari instead of a Lotus. I congratulate you on your choice, it's a fine one sir! However, why didn't you buy that Esprit Turbo you had on your wall at 15 and live the dream?
Again, I ask the question - who do you think [i]should[/] be buying Lotus cars?
1. Of course Ferrari is a yardstick for sports cars. At least it is where I come from.
2. When I was a teenager in the late 80's early 90's, Lotus were making some pretty special cars. I remember "wagging" several days from high school where my mates and I would go to the local exotic car dealers and check the latest cars out. Even though I was a Ferrari nut by then I still overall preferred the Esprit to the current 328.
I also vividly remember the first NSX I saw on one of those days off school. It had the best interior of any car I had seen and seemed light years ahead of the Ferrari 328, and the Lotus Esprit Turbo.
My 16 year old self would have still bought the Lotus, though, just because it was the coolest of the lot.
3. The poster on the bedroom wall thing I would have thought required no explanation. But; when I was 12-16, I was dreaming of Testarossas, Countachs, and Esprit Turbos. Naturally as I got older I no longer had posters on the wall (well of cars anyway) but I also no longer wanted to buy a Lotus, because their poster car now had about as much power as my mum's Corolla.
I don't care if it's a great car, I wouldn't have a poster of an Elise or an Elan on my wall if I was a 15 year old lad...
That may have been great for the purists because they understood the cars were light, but I couldn't have cared less.
Having said that I have no issue with the Élan or Elise, just that they should have continued with an updated Esprit "poster car".
4. Attempting to lamely link a musician to a car is pathetic and desperate, at best.
The only exception to "4" is Nick Mason because he has a genuine link to a genuine premium brand car, and is a genuine music legend, unlike Swooz Boast or whatever which is clearly a marketing ploy only, and has nothing to do with the actual car.
Edited by Steve12NG on Saturday 26th May 18:46
Edited by Steve12NG on Saturday 26th May 18:59
Edited by Steve12NG on Saturday 26th May 19:01
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