RE: Dany Bahar suspended
Discussion
mrclav said:
Thanks for the answer. What I think you grossly underestimate the influence some-one like Mr Dean and his ilk have on people around the world. If you can accept Asia is where the money is at and that hip-hop culture is accepted over there then how is the pudding being over-egged? Lotus are a business after all, a small business that needs people to buy the products much more than some-one like VAG. In my opinion, you're basing your ideas of branding on what you know hiphop to mean to you; that's not quite how it works.
Oversized chrome rims on cars were not popular until rappers put them in hip-hop videos.
Cristal was not the champagne of choice until rappers started drinking it in hip-hop videos.
No-one cared about what headphones they wore until Dr. Dre, Jimmy Iovine and Monster came up with Beats headphones and put them in hip-hop videos - catch my drift?
Trends don't make hip-hop, hip-hop sets the trends. Hence why, in my opinion, Mr. Bahar's plan is not as far-fetched as you'd think; if rappers say it's cool, are seen putting the cars in their videos or driving around in them a lot of people will think it's cool enough to actually want to buy one. Your point about the type of people who can afford a Lotus is somewhat moot to me, they're the same people who can afford a Mercedes Benz, Bentley, Ferrari etc and who buy into those brands precisely because they've seen people like him driving them!
The problem is that the current Lotus product is just not appealing to a luxury market - they're small, cramped, difficult to get in and out of etc. I do not for one second doubt the overwhelming power the hip hop industry has on the luxury sector, however all the products you listed lend themselves well to the luxury lifestyle. I also think you underestimate the level of market research that goes into these products that end up being popularised by hip hop artists too - these things rarely happen by accident. Bahar recognised that the current Lotus product wasn't suitable for the luxury market, which is why he introduced such drastically different new models, but getting Swizz Beatz involved so early on and so publicly was a mistake, one likely to have been made through external pressure to generate sales. You can buy all the hip hop influence you want, but if it's to sell incontinence pants, it just ain't gonna catch on! (just a cheeky analogy!)Oversized chrome rims on cars were not popular until rappers put them in hip-hop videos.
Cristal was not the champagne of choice until rappers started drinking it in hip-hop videos.
No-one cared about what headphones they wore until Dr. Dre, Jimmy Iovine and Monster came up with Beats headphones and put them in hip-hop videos - catch my drift?
Trends don't make hip-hop, hip-hop sets the trends. Hence why, in my opinion, Mr. Bahar's plan is not as far-fetched as you'd think; if rappers say it's cool, are seen putting the cars in their videos or driving around in them a lot of people will think it's cool enough to actually want to buy one. Your point about the type of people who can afford a Lotus is somewhat moot to me, they're the same people who can afford a Mercedes Benz, Bentley, Ferrari etc and who buy into those brands precisely because they've seen people like him driving them!
The people who should be buying Lotus cars are purists who enjoy the thrill of driving for driving's sake. They should be wealthy enough to afford a toy but not obsessed by trying to appear wealthy to others. Lotus buyers should be able to understand engineering concepts and appreciate the reasoning behind them.
Lotus is for drivers.
Lotus is for drivers.
10 Pence Short said:
The people who should be buying Lotus cars are purists who enjoy the thrill of driving for driving's sake. They should be wealthy enough to afford a toy but not obsessed by trying to appear wealthy to others. Lotus buyers should be able to understand engineering concepts and appreciate the reasoning behind them.
Lotus is for drivers.
This sums it up, oh and could people stop bickering on about Swizzel Beats.Lotus is for drivers.
10 Pence Short said:
The people who should be buying Lotus cars are purists who enjoy the thrill of driving for driving's sake. They should be wealthy enough to afford a toy but not obsessed by trying to appear wealthy to others. Lotus buyers should be able to understand engineering concepts and appreciate the reasoning behind them.
Lotus is for drivers.
But the problem Lotus have been trying to address under Bahar is that there do not appear to be enough such people to sustain a manufacturer even if owned by a major international company. Their alternative seems to be to shrink and become a Morgan (or TVR and that sadly didn't end well) or grow and move upmarket to get more volume.Lotus is for drivers.
Selling just the Elise and Esprit (or equivalents) was not going to be enough to survive.
This is not to say I agree with the way Bahar and co have gone about it.
In reply to a few comments made above;
How many times have Ferrari, Lamborghini, Range Rover etc been mentioned in Hip Hop music and shown in Hip Hop videos? In fact I seem to remember Lamborghini giving Akon a Gallardo. Has that harmed any of the myriad of brands which have appeared in such things? No it hasn't.
The elephant in the room is this; Lotus has been a vanity brand for the Malaysians. A LOSS MAKING vanity brand. The next logical step would be to say that purists alone cannot support the brand and cannot in any way ensure its survival. This has been proven time and time again. The financial accounts over at Lotus HQ will show this to be the case. There's no argument against it, none whatsoever. Lotus has been operating pretty much independently of its owners too, so you can't blame the Malaysians.
Even ROLEX makes money. Yes, the same brand with it's often misrepresented public image, not helped by the many gaudy personalized bejeweled examples floating around, turns an impressive profit. They employ people, lots of people. I'm sure they don't give a damn about image problems.
I would rather have a 'Popular Culture' Lotus that is financially healthy, building cars in Britain and making money instead of a 'Dead Man Walking Purists Wet Dream' Lotus; an uninspiring to the masses, economically redundant, introspective car company.
How many times have Ferrari, Lamborghini, Range Rover etc been mentioned in Hip Hop music and shown in Hip Hop videos? In fact I seem to remember Lamborghini giving Akon a Gallardo. Has that harmed any of the myriad of brands which have appeared in such things? No it hasn't.
The elephant in the room is this; Lotus has been a vanity brand for the Malaysians. A LOSS MAKING vanity brand. The next logical step would be to say that purists alone cannot support the brand and cannot in any way ensure its survival. This has been proven time and time again. The financial accounts over at Lotus HQ will show this to be the case. There's no argument against it, none whatsoever. Lotus has been operating pretty much independently of its owners too, so you can't blame the Malaysians.
Even ROLEX makes money. Yes, the same brand with it's often misrepresented public image, not helped by the many gaudy personalized bejeweled examples floating around, turns an impressive profit. They employ people, lots of people. I'm sure they don't give a damn about image problems.
I would rather have a 'Popular Culture' Lotus that is financially healthy, building cars in Britain and making money instead of a 'Dead Man Walking Purists Wet Dream' Lotus; an uninspiring to the masses, economically redundant, introspective car company.
10 Pence Short said:
The people who should be buying Lotus cars are purists who enjoy the thrill of driving for driving's sake. They should be wealthy enough to afford a toy but not obsessed by trying to appear wealthy to others. Lotus buyers should be able to understand engineering concepts and appreciate the reasoning behind them.
Lotus is for drivers.
Problem is there aren't very many people like that willing to spend money on a new Lotus. They've only sold around forty cars in the UK so far this year.Lotus is for drivers.
Mark-C said:
10 Pence Short said:
The people who should be buying Lotus cars are purists who enjoy the thrill of driving for driving's sake. They should be wealthy enough to afford a toy but not obsessed by trying to appear wealthy to others. Lotus buyers should be able to understand engineering concepts and appreciate the reasoning behind them.
Lotus is for drivers.
But the problem Lotus have been trying to address under Bahar is that there do not appear to be enough such people to sustain a manufacturer even if owned by a major international company. Their alternative seems to be to shrink and become a Morgan (or TVR and that sadly didn't end well) or grow and move upmarket to get more volume.Lotus is for drivers.
Selling just the Elise and Esprit (or equivalents) was not going to be enough to survive.
This is not to say I agree with the way Bahar and co have gone about it.
How old is the Elise, now? What have Lotus got to encourage people who've bought Lotus product to buy new or additional Lotus product?
If Lotus had genuinely replaced the Elise every 6 or 7 years, we'd now have a proper 3rd generation Elise, with new sales to go with it. Lotus could also have re-entered the market occupied by the 7 whilst working on a proper Esprit.
Pipe dreams trying to compete with VAG funded Porsche with a line up of 5 new models on one platform are just a waste of time.
andyroo said:
10 Pence Short said:
The people who should be buying Lotus cars are purists who enjoy the thrill of driving for driving's sake. They should be wealthy enough to afford a toy but not obsessed by trying to appear wealthy to others. Lotus buyers should be able to understand engineering concepts and appreciate the reasoning behind them.
Lotus is for drivers.
Problem is there aren't very many people like that willing to spend money on a new Lotus. They've only sold around forty cars in the UK so far this year.Lotus is for drivers.
If you're a purist Lotus fan. For you, I'm afraid the brand is already dead. In fact, according to some of your ilk, it's already been churning out rubbish.
The best thing for purists to do is to go and camp outside Ginetta in Leeds. If you're interested in one of their road cars they'll more than welcome you.
Hellbound said:
In reply to a few comments made above;
How many times have Ferrari, Lamborghini, Range Rover etc been mentioned in Hip Hop music and shown in Hip Hop videos? In fact I seem to remember Lamborghini giving Akon a Gallardo. Has that harmed any of the myriad of brands which have appeared in such things? No it hasn't.
The elephant in the room is this; Lotus has been a vanity brand for the Malaysians. A LOSS MAKING vanity brand. The next logical step would be to say that purists alone cannot support the brand and cannot in any way ensure its survival. This has been proven time and time again. The financial accounts over at Lotus HQ will show this to be the case. There's no argument against it, none whatsoever. Lotus has been operating pretty much independently of its owners too, so you can't blame the Malaysians.
Even ROLEX makes money. Yes, the same brand with it's often misrepresented public image, not helped by the many gaudy personalized bejeweled examples floating around, turns an impressive profit. They employ people, lots of people. I'm sure they don't give a damn about image problems.
I would rather have a 'Popular Culture' Lotus that is financially healthy, building cars in Britain and making money instead of a 'Dead Man Walking Purists Wet Dream' Lotus; an uninspiring to the masses, economically redundant, introspective car company.
All the companies you mention make products that are appealing to the luxury sector. Lotus doesn't. How many times have Ferrari, Lamborghini, Range Rover etc been mentioned in Hip Hop music and shown in Hip Hop videos? In fact I seem to remember Lamborghini giving Akon a Gallardo. Has that harmed any of the myriad of brands which have appeared in such things? No it hasn't.
The elephant in the room is this; Lotus has been a vanity brand for the Malaysians. A LOSS MAKING vanity brand. The next logical step would be to say that purists alone cannot support the brand and cannot in any way ensure its survival. This has been proven time and time again. The financial accounts over at Lotus HQ will show this to be the case. There's no argument against it, none whatsoever. Lotus has been operating pretty much independently of its owners too, so you can't blame the Malaysians.
Even ROLEX makes money. Yes, the same brand with it's often misrepresented public image, not helped by the many gaudy personalized bejeweled examples floating around, turns an impressive profit. They employ people, lots of people. I'm sure they don't give a damn about image problems.
I would rather have a 'Popular Culture' Lotus that is financially healthy, building cars in Britain and making money instead of a 'Dead Man Walking Purists Wet Dream' Lotus; an uninspiring to the masses, economically redundant, introspective car company.
Hellbound said:
Yup.
If you're a purist Lotus fan. For you, I'm afraid the brand is already dead. In fact, according to some of your ilk, it's already been churning out rubbish.
The best thing for purists to do is to go and camp outside Ginetta in Leeds. If you're interested in one of their road cars they'll more than welcome you.
Who said I was a purist? I'm just someone that has a little bit of understanding about the luxury market career wise as well as having had the fortune to drive the Evora S and the Elise and the Hethel test track, and I can tell you that these two ingredients do not mix as they currently stand. If you're a purist Lotus fan. For you, I'm afraid the brand is already dead. In fact, according to some of your ilk, it's already been churning out rubbish.
The best thing for purists to do is to go and camp outside Ginetta in Leeds. If you're interested in one of their road cars they'll more than welcome you.
ikonic said:
mrclav said:
No need to patronise, I obviously know the story and while we're here let's get something straight - Mr. Dean is primarily known as an extremely successful music producer before being known as a rapper and he is actually a car fanatic, basically a sort of hip-hop version of Jay Kay. So again I ask, what's your problem with him? Has he mis-appropriated Lotus funds like Mr. Bahar appears to have done?
He's styled an Evora (which I think is done in quite good taste) and is basically being paid to make sure he puts Lotus cars in his music videos and does the same for his friends in the industry - it's a smart strategy really. Hip hop has an impact on global pop culture that is startling at times, whether you want to accept it or it - if you know what the word 'bling' means, you prove this point.
I always hear people like you talking about how you don't want rappers/drug-dealers/chavs/whatever-other-boring-stereotype-you-can-mention (aka those who actually have money to afford one) to buy Lotus cars because apparently doing so damages the precious image of the brand not to mention causing Colin Chapman to spin in his grave but I want to know who you think SHOULD (and more importantly, will) buy them...
To be fair though, it unfortunately looks very bad for Hethel should the allegations against Mr. Bahar are proven to be true...
Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you.He's styled an Evora (which I think is done in quite good taste) and is basically being paid to make sure he puts Lotus cars in his music videos and does the same for his friends in the industry - it's a smart strategy really. Hip hop has an impact on global pop culture that is startling at times, whether you want to accept it or it - if you know what the word 'bling' means, you prove this point.
I always hear people like you talking about how you don't want rappers/drug-dealers/chavs/whatever-other-boring-stereotype-you-can-mention (aka those who actually have money to afford one) to buy Lotus cars because apparently doing so damages the precious image of the brand not to mention causing Colin Chapman to spin in his grave but I want to know who you think SHOULD (and more importantly, will) buy them...
To be fair though, it unfortunately looks very bad for Hethel should the allegations against Mr. Bahar are proven to be true...
One of the most sensible posts I have ever read on PH.
It always annoy me the snobbish behaviour of some people when it comes to certain marques of cars which they seem so dearly protective of; yet haven't actually put their hand in the own pocket to support.
No doubt they dream of an age where being a black man was enough to get pulled over by the BiB.
Like Mulder I wanted to believe - but what I thought would happen is coming true.
Shame - I'd like to think he tried something different but turns out not. Plans for new models and achieved nothing.... just more costly than the usual treading water and hoping on a new elise paint job or a new spoiler on the 90's esprit.
I think Lotus could come back - just needs a hit like Aston did.... damn me - I still believe
Shame - I'd like to think he tried something different but turns out not. Plans for new models and achieved nothing.... just more costly than the usual treading water and hoping on a new elise paint job or a new spoiler on the 90's esprit.
I think Lotus could come back - just needs a hit like Aston did.... damn me - I still believe
Hellbound said:
If you're a purist Lotus fan. For you, I'm afraid the brand is already dead.
The biggest problem is - as someone already said - that they're selling substantially the same cars they've been selling for years (a decade?) and no matter how 'hardcore' a driver you are, you should realise that a few-years-old one will do everything a new one will, for a FRACTION of the cost (or if you've already owned one - why buy another 'samey' car??)Hell, with the ever sillier regulations applied to new cars the odds are an older one will work BETTER - less weight, less crap, more added lightness!
Lotus have been on a silly trip for some time IMO - whether fraud or dodgy dealing is involved or not, you have to ask yourself WTF they've actually been DOING whilst their remaining brand kudos leaked away into the toilet...
I love the "old" Lotus, but everyone knows that its not a viable business plan to sell leaky, rattly, "Charachterful" cars, as only a select few will buy them.
As for Swizz Beats (sp?), I understand why he was brought in, to generate sales in the far east, where western "Culture" is very popular, and the rich want to have the cars, the lifestyle etc of the western rich and famous. Its where the money is at the moment.
I was hoping for club racer versions of the new models for the old Lotus fans, and slightly more comfy versions for everyone else. Lets not forget that Porsche's idea of lightweight (the Cayman R) is still over 200KG heavier than the new Exige, and its not as powerful. Sure, a new Elise at the same weight as my Sport 160 would be nice, but there are too many compromises needed to get to that weight, and it limits the market too much.
Whether Danny Bahar continues on as CEO or not (lets face it, its probably going to be not), quite a lot of his strategy wasn't too bad.
5 cars introduced at once though, was utter madness.
As for Swizz Beats (sp?), I understand why he was brought in, to generate sales in the far east, where western "Culture" is very popular, and the rich want to have the cars, the lifestyle etc of the western rich and famous. Its where the money is at the moment.
I was hoping for club racer versions of the new models for the old Lotus fans, and slightly more comfy versions for everyone else. Lets not forget that Porsche's idea of lightweight (the Cayman R) is still over 200KG heavier than the new Exige, and its not as powerful. Sure, a new Elise at the same weight as my Sport 160 would be nice, but there are too many compromises needed to get to that weight, and it limits the market too much.
Whether Danny Bahar continues on as CEO or not (lets face it, its probably going to be not), quite a lot of his strategy wasn't too bad.
5 cars introduced at once though, was utter madness.
mrclav said:
Er, ok - it's an answer alright but not to the question I asked. Let's see now...
First, you compare Lotus to Ferrari, which would imply you see Ferrari as some sort of yard-stick in the first place.
Then you say that Lotus started making glorified Mazda MX5's - you're a bit mixed up there mate, it's actually Mazda who started making glorified Elans; it's well a well known fact that Mazda used it as a yardstick when they designed the MX-5.
No longer were posters on your bedroom wall? Frankly, if you were a grown man with pictures of cars on your bedroom wall, I'd be worried for you...
Name calling? Really? Swizz Beatz is a stage name, it's the media who perpetually call him that and it's as facetious as it is boring. As I said before, you may not like Mr. Dean or what he's about but like it or not you ARE influenced by the genre of music he makes and if he influences other people to buy into the brand then more power to him. Lotus went from being questionable to being a complete joke you say? Show me the evidence to support your statement please. As far as I'm concerned Mr Bahar at present is doing more than enough to make that a reality, not Mr Dean.
Finally you bought a Ferrari instead of a Lotus. I congratulate you on your choice, it's a fine one sir! However, why didn't you buy that Esprit Turbo you had on your wall at 15 and live the dream?
Again, I ask the question - who do you think should be buying Lotus cars?
Whatever you about to discover we off that You about to tell her you love her we off that Always wanna fight in the club and we off that But you can't bring the future back, backFirst, you compare Lotus to Ferrari, which would imply you see Ferrari as some sort of yard-stick in the first place.
Then you say that Lotus started making glorified Mazda MX5's - you're a bit mixed up there mate, it's actually Mazda who started making glorified Elans; it's well a well known fact that Mazda used it as a yardstick when they designed the MX-5.
No longer were posters on your bedroom wall? Frankly, if you were a grown man with pictures of cars on your bedroom wall, I'd be worried for you...
Name calling? Really? Swizz Beatz is a stage name, it's the media who perpetually call him that and it's as facetious as it is boring. As I said before, you may not like Mr. Dean or what he's about but like it or not you ARE influenced by the genre of music he makes and if he influences other people to buy into the brand then more power to him. Lotus went from being questionable to being a complete joke you say? Show me the evidence to support your statement please. As far as I'm concerned Mr Bahar at present is doing more than enough to make that a reality, not Mr Dean.
Finally you bought a Ferrari instead of a Lotus. I congratulate you on your choice, it's a fine one sir! However, why didn't you buy that Esprit Turbo you had on your wall at 15 and live the dream?
Again, I ask the question - who do you think should be buying Lotus cars?
Edited by mrclav on Saturday 26th May 18:42
Y'all are steady chasin' the fame and we off that Over sized clothes and chains we off that Niggaz still makin' it rain and we off that 'Cause you can't bring the future back, back
Tell them haters get off me, the Cris' we off that Timbs we off that, rims we off that Yeah, we off that, is you still on that?And we still makin' money 'cause we still on that
Hitch78 said:
Fetchez la vache said:
Mr_B said:
Hitch78 said:
Lotus is f
ked.
Nope, just getting back to what Lotus does best. ked. ked?ked. ked, getting fked, just generally going from one management and funding crisis to another on the back of people and big companies who think it's all jolly good fun to get into the sports car business.Someone will just about keep Lotus going and they will make cars which are great in many ways but not really big money earners. The people who do the hard work at Hethel will bring out another Elise type car which will keep the company and name just about going and it won't ever be a Porsche rival. That, being the single best thing that can happen out of all of this.
You see, I like the charming madness and romance of the Lotus of old, and the Aston martin of old. Making cars that Porsche lovers looked at and scoffed at, but yet had a real charm which made me desire one in a way Porsche couldn't begin to possibly understand.
It's an odd thing to argue against, but for me I never wanted to see Lotus have the success of Aston Martin. I must see 30 Astons a day when I'm driving around London, as for Porsche, they just blend in with the black cabs as parts of the streets. That may make no sense to many of you here, but charm is an odd thing to define, but Lotus still has it, just not sure I wanted to see them bin it in an effort to be more Porsche-like.
andyroo said:
All the companies you mention make products that are appealing to the luxury sector. Lotus doesn't.
Label me ignorant, but any company that promotes its product in a Bond movie is appealing to the 'luxury' sector. By its very nature, luxury also means exclusive.In any case, there's so much about Lotus that could be seen as luxury I'm not even going to press the matter further.
Blah blah blah
Yes no yes no
Nobody mentions here a pick up on pistonheads reporting . . . As they mention themselves 'slightly behind' though this reporting was well behind!?
Not a crtical comment but perhaps a daily 'short bulletin' site header would be good . . .
A sort of 'daily auto news 'headline' . . . There seems always something interesting . . Even putting up the winners of certain races on slower days
Lotus and pistonheads go together so a shame on the tardy reporting
I like where Bahar was trying to take Lotus with the new models. Sure, I think it was inevitable that some things had to change with the proposed lineup, but there was/is plenty of room to fall short and still be a success.
I love that he was going back to genuine Lotus engines.
The Swizz Beatz criticisms continue to puzzle me. First, I think the car looks nice. Second, it's harmless, at worst.
I love that he was going back to genuine Lotus engines.
The Swizz Beatz criticisms continue to puzzle me. First, I think the car looks nice. Second, it's harmless, at worst.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff