RE: PH Blog: give McLaren a break
Discussion
The McLaren is definitely high on my 'Dream Garage' list.
I think many folk wanted it to be a few things, that it was never going to be...
As special as the F1.
More stunning to look at than it is - I think it's gorgeous, but with McLaren's approach and ethos, it was never going to be a flamboyant and dramatic beast.
Ferrari beater in every way - subjective.
Many seem to be guilty of being too negative and too critical of what it isn't, rather than praising it and being proud of it for what it is.
I think many folk wanted it to be a few things, that it was never going to be...
As special as the F1.
More stunning to look at than it is - I think it's gorgeous, but with McLaren's approach and ethos, it was never going to be a flamboyant and dramatic beast.
Ferrari beater in every way - subjective.
Many seem to be guilty of being too negative and too critical of what it isn't, rather than praising it and being proud of it for what it is.
Nobody doubts its abilities - it's just that the styling looks more like a Saleen than a proper British supercar. It's a singular failing and one shared by Nobles and possibly even the new Ginetta.
The one thing you can say about the original Esprit is that it's styling was spot-on and advanced the genre. Maybe with increasing safety regulations, that is beyond our capabilities now but the 458 shows it can still be done.
The one thing you can say about the original Esprit is that it's styling was spot-on and advanced the genre. Maybe with increasing safety regulations, that is beyond our capabilities now but the 458 shows it can still be done.
Dan said:
As Chris said in his piece accompanying his video on it, to run Ferrari at the top of its game a very close second with your first roll of the dice is pretty damned impressive for anyone, let alone the very first (relatively) mass-produced car you’ve ever built off your own back.
IS it impressive though? Ok, don't get me wrong, it's some achievement, but given McLaren's resources, racing experience and experience building the F1 & developing the SLR, did anyone really expect the MP4-12C to be fighting for anything other than the top spot?IanO said:
We should give the MP4-12C a proper name - whilst it has a code like a washing machine, you treat it like one. Either just McLaren F2, like the Audi R8 or Noble M12. Alternatively a real name like Lotus Esprit, Ferrari Daytona - just not the McLaren Woking.
Why not just shorten what they've already given us? MP4 or 12C?? Just not MP4/12C...The only thing wrong with it is it just doesn't roll off the tongue like 4-5-8. None of us call cars by their full names like "Ferrari 458 Italia" or even Ferrari 458, just Italia or 458 or Daytona or R8 or Gallardo. 12C works for me it doesn't have to be a beautiful name, just roll off the tongue easier. But if it had to absolutely have a memorable name...how about the Sebring? Location of Bruce McLaren's first ever F1 win...or McLaren racing's first win at Spa? (yeah, I know a bit naff!) probably why I don't have a job naming cars!Many Brits do relish in damning UK products. Whether it be still calling Lotus 'lots of trouble...' etc. Still thinking that we make the Allegro or Marina or that all K series engines blow up. That Red Robbo works in UK car industry. It has taken non-UK companies to realise that we have fantastic engineers, stylists and assemblers plus great suppliers. However Clarkson et al continue with daft ancient urban myths whilst forgetting the facts and how the industry has changed.
We need belief in ourselves, stop spectulative bankers (Cadbury takeover illustrates this well) betting on our companies for short term gain rather than long term growth, more engineers and scientists, fewer accountants and lawyers, better management and MPs with real experience.
McLaren, Tata, JCB, Stadco, Vauxhall Elsmere Port are example of how to do it.
The macrocephalic Clarkson deserves a grand piano being dropped on his head. The Marina was actually quite succesful!
And well done to McLaren and Riccardo.
We need belief in ourselves, stop spectulative bankers (Cadbury takeover illustrates this well) betting on our companies for short term gain rather than long term growth, more engineers and scientists, fewer accountants and lawyers, better management and MPs with real experience.
McLaren, Tata, JCB, Stadco, Vauxhall Elsmere Port are example of how to do it.
The macrocephalic Clarkson deserves a grand piano being dropped on his head. The Marina was actually quite succesful!
And well done to McLaren and Riccardo.
Having waited for over a year for my MP4 12C to arrive, it is in every aspect well beyond expectations. In Sapphire Black it is stunning, and as for this whole name issue, get over it. Cars are not children that you name after your aunt or a place,they are engineered machines, more of a meaningful part number as with MBz and Porsche.
Congratulations to McLarens engineers for creating a " function statement" vs a "fashion statement" . Aerodynamics dictated the body shape, weight, and materials.
Ferraris are like a georgous woman in a wet tee shirt, something to stare at but not what you really want at home. Be honest, the MP12C is stunning in a subtle way, not " look at me arm candy".
England is producing some very nice cars and bikes these days. You should be proud.
Congratulations to McLarens engineers for creating a " function statement" vs a "fashion statement" . Aerodynamics dictated the body shape, weight, and materials.
Ferraris are like a georgous woman in a wet tee shirt, something to stare at but not what you really want at home. Be honest, the MP12C is stunning in a subtle way, not " look at me arm candy".
England is producing some very nice cars and bikes these days. You should be proud.
peter450 said:
I think a lot of the lack of character points were down to the lack of noise, i've not heard one myself, but most of the early reviews i read raised the issue of a lack of aural drama/compared to other supercars, and this is a pretty important part of the supercar experiance IMO
As for the whole we love to knock our own tone i totally disagree
Lotus, Jaguar etc have often been given pretty favourable coverage for there new cars
Not directed at you Peter450 but I think this is where a lot of the problems lay, blindly trusting the testers opinion. After all this is what it is their personal opinion and everyone is different, has different likes and feelings. but of course it is extremely difficult as most people wont have anything better to go on as I know I wont every be in a place to test or buy any supercarsAs for the whole we love to knock our own tone i totally disagree
Lotus, Jaguar etc have often been given pretty favourable coverage for there new cars
After all of the comments on the exhaust noise Mclaren went back and worked on improving it. I have heard a few recently and they really sound awsome
But it is strange how Mclaren seem to have such a hard time. especially over faults/recalls which all cars have to a point. But what should be more important is how the manufactures deal with it. there was latter sent to owners saying that all 12C's would be upgraded to latest spec with a 25PS power upgrade for no cost - now thats good.
I read somewhere that the IRIS system problems stemed from the fact that the company doinf a lot of work for it was wiped out in the Japan tsumami so had to start again from scratch but offered it for free as compensation.
I'm definately proud of Mclaren and love the MP4-12C.
One turned up the other day in the car park where I work (was a clients) Didn't see it but saw peoples photos on their phones so knew what it was. Black with CF bits
General consensus amongst people with next to no interest in supercars was that it was "tacky" compared to the Black Aventdor we'd seen a month or so back (another clients) The other point was that only a handful new what it was (some thought it was a McLaren F1) and many said they prefered the Black Audi R8 V10 Spyder we see often (and that thing sounds superb!)
Didn't help that the Macca owner was having a HUGE amount of trouble getting the doors to open with the swipe action you have to do. Not cool!
As for bigging up Brit made products because their British. Not for me. Not EVER!
FWIW McLaren shot themselves in the foot in 2 ways. Firstly they designed and built the F1 (and the SLR) before so they are not some new start up company like Ron wants us to believe. And secondly they hyped the bloody thing to the rafters for MONTHS saying it would be the best ever. Which is pretty stupid. Better to actually build the best ever then sit quietly back, in the British way, and see how it's received. Like with the aformentioned F1. Bear in mind before that cars launch, no one had a CLUE what it was like.
Anyway. They've announced a Spyder version now to try and claw back some sales from Audi and Porsche and Ferrari and Lamborghini.
http://www.mclarenautomotive.com/uk/insider/archiv...
General consensus amongst people with next to no interest in supercars was that it was "tacky" compared to the Black Aventdor we'd seen a month or so back (another clients) The other point was that only a handful new what it was (some thought it was a McLaren F1) and many said they prefered the Black Audi R8 V10 Spyder we see often (and that thing sounds superb!)
Didn't help that the Macca owner was having a HUGE amount of trouble getting the doors to open with the swipe action you have to do. Not cool!
As for bigging up Brit made products because their British. Not for me. Not EVER!
FWIW McLaren shot themselves in the foot in 2 ways. Firstly they designed and built the F1 (and the SLR) before so they are not some new start up company like Ron wants us to believe. And secondly they hyped the bloody thing to the rafters for MONTHS saying it would be the best ever. Which is pretty stupid. Better to actually build the best ever then sit quietly back, in the British way, and see how it's received. Like with the aformentioned F1. Bear in mind before that cars launch, no one had a CLUE what it was like.
Anyway. They've announced a Spyder version now to try and claw back some sales from Audi and Porsche and Ferrari and Lamborghini.
http://www.mclarenautomotive.com/uk/insider/archiv...
Rich_W said:
Anyway. They've announced a Spyder version now to try and claw back some sales from Audi and Porsche and Ferrari and Lamborghini.
http://www.mclarenautomotive.com/uk/insider/archiv...
What are you wittering on about?http://www.mclarenautomotive.com/uk/insider/archiv...
Whatever you seem to think, McLaren are not trying to "claw back" sales from anyone. They have already sold more than a 1,000 MP4 12's in their first year.
In spite of the teething troubles with IRIS ( there was always going to be something that didnt go quite to plan ) the car has been a great success. And straight out of the box, its doing well in racing too.
WIth the Spyder now, the company seems to be doing very well.
Bloody impressive to launch a company like this in the teeth of a recession and actually get more than 1,000 cars made at £200k a pop in your first year.
toppstuff said:
What are you wittering on about?
Whatever you seem to think, McLaren are not trying to "claw back" sales from anyone. They have already sold more than a 1,000 MP4 12's in their first year.
Only the dedicated McLaren Fan boys see my comment as an attack! Whatever you seem to think, McLaren are not trying to "claw back" sales from anyone. They have already sold more than a 1,000 MP4 12's in their first year.
I'm not a fan if THIS car. But I'm glad it's doing well. Bottom line is that they want to take sales from their competitors. So launching a spyder (surely as a Brit company it should be a Convertible?) will help boost sales figures. Though I question whether an owner can do 200mph with the roof down and not get buffetted to hell!Oh, and FYI Audi sold 4000 R8s in the first full year of production
- WikipediaAnd in the first 3 months of 2012 (3 years after launch) Ferrari shifted 1733 F458's
- topspeed.comtoppstuff said:
And straight out of the box, its doing well in racing too.
So is the 458Italia and the current iteration of the GT3R. Didn't see any Maccas at Le Mans either. Bit of a shame that given they won on their debut in 95.toppstuff said:
Bloody impressive to launch a company like this in the teeth of a recession and actually get more than 1,000 cars made at £200k a pop in your first year.
You do understand that recessions don't really affect those with money don't you...Hers's 26mins of shiny stuff for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGlqjCufMY&lis...
Rich_W said:
FWIW McLaren shot themselves in the foot in 2 ways. Firstly they designed and built the F1 (and the SLR) before so they are not some new start up company like Ron wants us to believe. And secondly they hyped the bloody thing to the rafters for MONTHS saying it would be the best ever. Which is pretty stupid. Better to actually build the best ever then sit quietly back, in the British way, and see how it's received. Like with the aformentioned F1. Bear in mind before that cars launch, no one had a CLUE what it was like.
I don't see how it is not impressive in regards to what they have done in building the car. You mentioned the SLR and F1. However the F1 was built in a very different style (few cars, focus on details) rather than a "mass produced" car. Also that was a long time ago, so it is likely a lot of the experienced people have moved on/ involved in different stuff/ simply forgotten a lot of the stuff they learned back then. In regards to the SLR it was not building a car from scratch etc. So although it will have helped a little it is still a huge ask to make this car from nothing.I'm not a fanboy, but was very impressed when out in a friend's one. Not sure if I would get one myself compared to other cars (but would probably have it over the 458).
Mx5guy said:
In regards to the SLR it was not building a car from scratch etc. So although it will have helped a little it is still a huge ask to make this car from nothing.
Erm? Not sure what you mean?Designed by the genius that is Murray and his team. (Albeit to a spec agreed with Mercedes) Built by McLaren at Woking and Portsmouth. Engine and box obviously come in a box from Germany.
Rich_W said:
Mx5guy said:
In regards to the SLR it was not building a car from scratch etc. So although it will have helped a little it is still a huge ask to make this car from nothing.
Erm? Not sure what you mean?Designed by the genius that is Murray and his team. (Albeit to a spec agreed with Mercedes) Built by McLaren at Woking and Portsmouth. Engine and box obviously come in a box from Germany.
Murray wanted to do a mid engined car:
Car and driver said:
And after the F1 came the SLR, built for Mercedes. Would it have been different if you’d had a freer rein with it?
Gordon Murray said:
Absolutely. It would have been mid-engined for a start. The original weight target was 1400 kilograms [3086 pounds], and we genuinely believed we’d have hit that if we’d had a normally aspirated engine. Then it would have been dynamite, the ultimate GT car ever, probably. It turned out to be 1630 kilograms [3594 pounds] with a supercharged engine—still light for a big car but nothing special. And, of course, it was 300 grand [$460,000] instead of 180 grand [$275,000], which was the original target.
The whole "gin palace" part of the SLR was certainly from Merc. Murray doesn't do heavy cars, if he has any choice in it.C
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