RE: Airbag poisons driver
Discussion
filski666 said:
here is how sodium azide affects you:
Sodium azide, used mainly as a preservative in aqueous laboratory reagents and biologic fluids and as a fuel in automobile airbag gas generants, has caused deaths for decades. Its exposure potential for the general population increases as the use of airbags increase. In order to characterize the known health effects of sodium azide in humans and the circumstances of their exposure, the authors conducted a systematic review of the literature from 1927 to 2002 on human exposure to sodium azide and its health effects. The most commonly reported health effect from azide exposure is hypotension, almost independent of route of exposure. Most industrial exposures are by inhalation. Most laboratory exposures or suicide attempts are by ingestion. Most of the reported cases involved persons working in laboratories. The time between exposure and detection of hypotension can predict outcome. Fatal doses occur with exposures of >or=700 mg (10 mg/kg). Nonlethal doses ranged from 0.3 to 150 mg (0.004 to 2 mg/kg). Onset of hypotension within minutes or in less than an hour is indicative of a pharmacological response and a benign course. Hypotension with late onset (>1 hour) constitutes an ominous sign for death. All individuals with hypotension for more than an hour died. Additional health effects included mild complaints of nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, headache, dizziness, temporary loss of vision, palpitation, dyspnea, or temporary loss of consciousness or mental status decrease. More severe symptoms and signs included marked decreased mental status, seizure, coma, arrhythmia, tachypnea, pulmonary edema, metabolic acidosis, and cardiorespiratory arrest. The signs and symptoms from lower exposures (<700 mg) are physiological responses at the vascular level and those at or above are toxicological responses at the metabolic level. There is no specific antidote for sodium azide intoxication. Recommended preventive measures for sodium azide exposure consist of education of people at high risk, such as laboratory workers, regarding its chemical properties and toxicity, better labeling of products containing sodium azide, and strict enforcement of laboratory regulations and access control.
from here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851150
so high doses give you hypotension (low blood pressure) leading to death, low doses affect your vascular system.......I don't see the link to a respiratory condition?
Right so utterly irrelevent to cause of death then. Sodium azide, used mainly as a preservative in aqueous laboratory reagents and biologic fluids and as a fuel in automobile airbag gas generants, has caused deaths for decades. Its exposure potential for the general population increases as the use of airbags increase. In order to characterize the known health effects of sodium azide in humans and the circumstances of their exposure, the authors conducted a systematic review of the literature from 1927 to 2002 on human exposure to sodium azide and its health effects. The most commonly reported health effect from azide exposure is hypotension, almost independent of route of exposure. Most industrial exposures are by inhalation. Most laboratory exposures or suicide attempts are by ingestion. Most of the reported cases involved persons working in laboratories. The time between exposure and detection of hypotension can predict outcome. Fatal doses occur with exposures of >or=700 mg (10 mg/kg). Nonlethal doses ranged from 0.3 to 150 mg (0.004 to 2 mg/kg). Onset of hypotension within minutes or in less than an hour is indicative of a pharmacological response and a benign course. Hypotension with late onset (>1 hour) constitutes an ominous sign for death. All individuals with hypotension for more than an hour died. Additional health effects included mild complaints of nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, headache, dizziness, temporary loss of vision, palpitation, dyspnea, or temporary loss of consciousness or mental status decrease. More severe symptoms and signs included marked decreased mental status, seizure, coma, arrhythmia, tachypnea, pulmonary edema, metabolic acidosis, and cardiorespiratory arrest. The signs and symptoms from lower exposures (<700 mg) are physiological responses at the vascular level and those at or above are toxicological responses at the metabolic level. There is no specific antidote for sodium azide intoxication. Recommended preventive measures for sodium azide exposure consist of education of people at high risk, such as laboratory workers, regarding its chemical properties and toxicity, better labeling of products containing sodium azide, and strict enforcement of laboratory regulations and access control.
from here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851150
so high doses give you hypotension (low blood pressure) leading to death, low doses affect your vascular system.......I don't see the link to a respiratory condition?
ETA: Actually not entirely true pulmonary oedema would be rather nasty if you managed to get an uncontrolled infection... But I suppose so would anything on that list!
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Wednesday 30th May 13:38
NickGibbs said:
Question for the coroner I think! (he was the one blaming the airbag). I can answer the Daily Mail question. I don't write for them.
The coroner said, "This man died as a result of this incident and more pointedly because of the explosion of his airbag."We're then told he died of lung infection, not due to the toxic effect of the Sodium Azide (at least not directly, perhaps he suffered lung damage? Perhaps he was a life long smoker? Perhaps he damaged his lungs and could not heal who knows?)
I don't understand why the article seizes upon the idea (perhaps correctly,but that isn't clear?) that the the two are causally related as a result of Sodium Azide.
Incidentally, the most common cause of death in coroners reports is "heart stopped beating". Make what you will of that.
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Wednesday 30th May 13:40
Derp said:
nsa said:
I didn't realise this site had turned into the Daily Mail. I'm sure I read that this is the only recorded death like this in the UK.
Tbh, even one death is one too many.It cant be that hard to find an alternate substance can it...
I suspect that cost is more significant than the price of a life here. Still, i hope the widow sues.
If this particular airbag was in some way defective and thus poisoned the driver, then I can't really argue with a lawsuit, but if it was not a defect, and the widow sues, what makes you think this is going to save more lives than it destroys, if it has the maximum potential to save on average only one every, what, 20 years in the UK? I'll bet more people than that are killed by their underwear, and that's without the mitigating circumstances of being involved in a multiple car pileup.
I'm very sure that if there was a better product to use, it would be in use. I suspect that the product they are using is used not because its cheap but because it produces nitrogen, which means the airbag is being inflated, exteremely quickly, with a harmless, inert gas. This is a very specialised item, I wouldn't be surprised if they actually didn't have too many options when it came to choosing the parts that make it work, and still managing to prevent accidental deployment.
A coroner in Ireland recently put "Spontaneous Human Combustion" down as a cause of death
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15032614
- soon they'll be taking vampires seriously...
When my Civic 1.8 VTi was written-off (overall a good thing - it was a PoS), I remember a couple of passers-by getting very excited about 'getting us out of the car quickly'. As I was sitting quite comfortably and saw no reason to get-up I wondered what their concern was.
"All that smoke in your car - it's on fire"
"No, it's just the stuff which the airbags contain - it's not a problem"
I'd assumed it was something like talc which is there to stop it sticking to anything??
That was 11 years ago - if it was 'airbag death powder' (in ahead of the Daily Mail with that one) do you think I'm safe?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15032614
- soon they'll be taking vampires seriously...
When my Civic 1.8 VTi was written-off (overall a good thing - it was a PoS), I remember a couple of passers-by getting very excited about 'getting us out of the car quickly'. As I was sitting quite comfortably and saw no reason to get-up I wondered what their concern was.
"All that smoke in your car - it's on fire"
"No, it's just the stuff which the airbags contain - it's not a problem"
I'd assumed it was something like talc which is there to stop it sticking to anything??
That was 11 years ago - if it was 'airbag death powder' (in ahead of the Daily Mail with that one) do you think I'm safe?
CoolC said:
Strange that they refer to the airbag splitting, as all airbags have big holes in them anyway.
The airbag inflates and then imediately deflates because of these holes, that's how they work.
All the gasses contained within an airbag deployment end up in the cabin of the car every time.
That.The airbag inflates and then imediately deflates because of these holes, that's how they work.
All the gasses contained within an airbag deployment end up in the cabin of the car every time.
Except for side airbags, which do stay inflated.
I know in the new 3 series, and I guess other cars, they windows drop a fraction if the airbags depoly to allow gasses to escape/stop a rapid increase in pressure within the cabin.
Edited by loomx on Wednesday 30th May 14:18
filski666 said:
what a crock of s
t - when the ignitor goes off, the nitrogen produced passes through filters to stop the un-reacted sodium azide coming with it, the only thing that comes out of the ignitor tube is nitrogen - it matters not one jot that the bag was punctured, as has been said - they are designed to start deflating before you hit them anyway!!
Unless there was something seriously faulty with that specific ignitor he inhaled talc and this "possibly" was "slightly" related to his lung problems 2 months later.
Maybe he had some other pre-existing problem he was un-aware of?
You won't get very far on PH with well reasoned opinion. It sounds like you know far too much about airbags! I'd make some sweeping generalisations based on your own opinion more.t - when the ignitor goes off, the nitrogen produced passes through filters to stop the un-reacted sodium azide coming with it, the only thing that comes out of the ignitor tube is nitrogen - it matters not one jot that the bag was punctured, as has been said - they are designed to start deflating before you hit them anyway!!Unless there was something seriously faulty with that specific ignitor he inhaled talc and this "possibly" was "slightly" related to his lung problems 2 months later.
Maybe he had some other pre-existing problem he was un-aware of?
Something along the lines of:
"Aaaahhhhgghg. We're all going to die. Car manufacturers are out to kill us all and make more money. Panic and lock your kids away"
ArosaMike said:
"Panic and lock your kids away"
As that "World's worst Mom" highlights - your kids are several hundred times more likely to be injured or killed in your car than they are to be abducted - and yet parents drive their kids everywhere to avoid them being abducted...People want simple explanations - easy enemies to blame - easy answers. Anything which conflicts with their lazy-arsed self-centered lifestyle is not something they ever want to hear.
"Airbags are dangerous - I never crash anyway(*) so..."
(*) no-one does, do they?
Once set off an airbag in a workshop - was a controlled one mind!
Things that stick with me were the noise, the dust and the heat.
Even from 20 feet away it made our ears hurt. The talc inside was airborne for quite a while and made a bit of a mess and the wheel was too hot to touch for about a minute.
Made me wonder if you would be injured more from one going off in your face. Seeing how close some people sit to them it wouldnt surprise me if they did.
Things that stick with me were the noise, the dust and the heat.
Even from 20 feet away it made our ears hurt. The talc inside was airborne for quite a while and made a bit of a mess and the wheel was too hot to touch for about a minute.
Made me wonder if you would be injured more from one going off in your face. Seeing how close some people sit to them it wouldnt surprise me if they did.
With these feet said:
Made me wonder if you would be injured more from one going off in your face. Seeing how close some people sit to them it wouldnt surprise me if they did.
Yes, they can kill - hence the warnings about not putting small children in the front. I know my sister (a doctor) has seen some pretty nasty injuries to children whose parents ignored this advice.There was one case of a police driver who ended up in an accident, the airbag deployed whilst his arm was 'over' it - it damaged is arm/ shoulder so badly, he never regained full use of it.
Martin
With these feet said:
Once set off an airbag in a workshop - was a controlled one mind!
Things that stick with me were the noise, the dust and the heat.
Even from 20 feet away it made our ears hurt. The talc inside was airborne for quite a while and made a bit of a mess and the wheel was too hot to touch for about a minute.
Made me wonder if you would be injured more from one going off in your face. Seeing how close some people sit to them it wouldnt surprise me if they did.
They get hot because of the way they work, its an explosive, its the massive increase in heat, that causes the gasses to expand and inflate the bag.Things that stick with me were the noise, the dust and the heat.
Even from 20 feet away it made our ears hurt. The talc inside was airborne for quite a while and made a bit of a mess and the wheel was too hot to touch for about a minute.
Made me wonder if you would be injured more from one going off in your face. Seeing how close some people sit to them it wouldnt surprise me if they did.
Thats why people get minor burns on there arms and so on. I was involved in a crash which set off all the airbags in the car, yes there is a lot of dust in the air in the car, and I ended up with a burn on my arm. but the burn wasnt anything major, no worse than what I got from spending a couple hours in the suns last week.
At the end of the day I would rather has a minor burn to the arm, than a broken face.
Prof Prolapse said:
The coroner said, "This man died as a result of this incident and more pointedly because of the explosion of his airbag."
We're then told he died of lung infection, not due to the toxic effect of the Sodium Azide (at least not directly, perhaps he suffered lung damage? Perhaps he was a life long smoker? Perhaps he damaged his lungs and could not heal who knows?)
I don't understand why the article seizes upon the idea (perhaps correctly,but that isn't clear?) that the the two are causally related as a result of Sodium Azide.
Incidentally, the most common cause of death in coroners reports is "heart stopped beating". Make what you will of that.
These are all good points. The talc theory for the white powder is interesting. I thought I'd mention that sodium azide is a white powder too and is the favourite propellant for airbags. It's also undeniably toxic.We're then told he died of lung infection, not due to the toxic effect of the Sodium Azide (at least not directly, perhaps he suffered lung damage? Perhaps he was a life long smoker? Perhaps he damaged his lungs and could not heal who knows?)
I don't understand why the article seizes upon the idea (perhaps correctly,but that isn't clear?) that the the two are causally related as a result of Sodium Azide.
Incidentally, the most common cause of death in coroners reports is "heart stopped beating". Make what you will of that.
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Wednesday 30th May 13:40
Was the airbag completely inflated at the point when it was punctured (and thus merely expelling nitrogen gas)? I guess we'll never really know.
The fact remained coroner blamed the airbag and specifically the chemicals that emerged from the airbag. To my knowledge, he didn't specify which ones.
Poisonous airbags is an interesting story, even if turns out the coroner needed to investigate further - always aiming for interesting here on Pistonheads!
mph999 said:
Yes, they can kill - hence the warnings about not putting small children in the front. I know my sister (a doctor) has seen some pretty nasty injuries to children whose parents ignored this advice.
There was one case of a police driver who ended up in an accident, the airbag deployed whilst his arm was 'over' it - it damaged is arm/ shoulder so badly, he never regained full use of it.
Martin
my father is a pathologist, and two stories I remember he has told me in the past involving airbags killing people were a man smoking a pipe in his Jaguar (obviously), minor crash - airbag goes off and pipe is rammed through his brain (smoking kills!) - the other was a woman sat too close to the steering wheel, minor crash, airbag goes off and pushes her backwards with such force she suffered a crown fracture (where your spine punctures the base of your skull - often seen in people who jump off buildings and land on their feet due to the skull's inertia)There was one case of a police driver who ended up in an accident, the airbag deployed whilst his arm was 'over' it - it damaged is arm/ shoulder so badly, he never regained full use of it.
Martin
so, yeah - airbags do kill people in many ways, but they save many many more, so I for one am not going to get bothered just because a very small minority of people have been killed by them.
..........not that my GT-FOUR has any airbags anyway! ha ha ha
Some people are killed by their seatbelts too....but I will still wear mine, thanks!
It does definitely sound more like a lung condition from the packing talc than anything to do with the chemicals in the explosive flash - as said they have filters.
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why do they need an explosion anyway? Would it not be easier to have a small very high pressure canister of inert gas that fires to inflate the bag? Or would the inflation not be quick enough?
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why do they need an explosion anyway? Would it not be easier to have a small very high pressure canister of inert gas that fires to inflate the bag? Or would the inflation not be quick enough?
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