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E38Ross

10,515 posts

81 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
PanzerCommander said:
eliot said:
Very few people have experienced a remapped auto gearbox, they are something to behold.
yes The difference between an unmapped and a remapped 'box is frankly astonishing.
care to elaborate? i'm intrigued!

Ari

Original Poster:

7,205 posts

84 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
Perd Hapley said:
Okay I will clarify. I am not holding up the DAF transmission as an ideal, I just think that an ideal automatic gearbox would only give you the option of FORWARD : NEUTRAL : REVERSE and the car does not move at all until the accelerator is pressed.

They're supposed to be simpler than a manual gearbox with clutch. Yet we've got a thread where people are discussing whether its better to use the handbrake or the park function or both, discussing whether to change to neutral at lights or hold it on the brakes, how long you can hold it on the brakes before you should move to neutral.

None of these things should be issues, because I can't see why 'park' even exists while every car also has a handbrake, and a car shouldn't move in gear when the driver isn't pressing the accelerator! At least a manual would stall.
Park exists for exactly the same reason that you should ALWAYS leave a manual car parked in gear. There have been many many instances of cars rolling away when left parked on a hill secured by handbrake alone.

So what we have is, in fact, your "ideal gearbox", but with the advantage of being able to secure the car against (all too common) handbrake failure.

5 USA

4,452 posts

114 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
Many decent autos (and some manuals)include a "hill hold" feature which ensures the car can never roll backwards. It works by sensing the nose of the car being higher than the rear and simply locks pressure in the brake lines until the throttle is pressed.

All Porsche PDK cars need this "hold" feature they are essentially neither automatic (no torque converter) nor manual (no clutch pedal) in the conventional sense.

5 USA

4,452 posts

114 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
With any form of auto there is one disadvantage - the car can never "plan ahead" for an overtake or for engine braking. So a box with manual over-ride (with or without flappy paddles) is very useful.

Many decent auto's (again including Porsche PDK) never need to be driven in "manual" mode. You just leave them in auto and click for a downchange when you want one. Car defaults back to auto once your manoevre is completed. Best of all worlds!

davethebunny

691 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
rick88 said:
My advanced driving instructor reckons that it's a fact that less autos at rear ended at the lights, and that this is likely attributable to the fact that you have to brake to not move if left in drive. .....
I recently had to do a IRDA for business driving. one of the things the online tutorial told you to do was to sit at junctions with your foot on the brakes, so your brake lights are lit.
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Ari

Original Poster:

7,205 posts

84 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
5 USA said:
With any form of auto there is one disadvantage - the car can never "plan ahead" for an overtake or for engine braking. So a box with manual over-ride (with or without flappy paddles) is very useful.

Many decent auto's (again including Porsche PDK) never need to be driven in "manual" mode. You just leave them in auto and click for a downchange when you want one. Car defaults back to auto once your manoevre is completed. Best of all worlds!
Absolutely correct and exactly what mine does. If I want a lower gear in readiness for an overtake or hill descent I can just dial it in with the "down" paddle. Whichever gear I select means the car then only uses that gear or below (so dialing in "4" means the car uses 1,2,3,4). I'm then held in a lower gear ready to overtake. One long pull of the "up" paddle reverts the car to "D", full auto using all gears. Perfect.

There is a manual mode that holds which ever gear I've selected and doesn't change up or down from it (unless I reach the edge of the parameter of that gear or instigate "kickdown"), but I never use it as the box is always clever enough to invariably be in the correct gear anyway, other than in the circs above (such as preparing for an overtake).

Ari

Original Poster:

7,205 posts

84 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
davethebunny said:
I recently had to do a IRDA for business driving. one of the things the online tutorial told you to do was to sit at junctions with your foot on the brakes, so your brake lights are lit.
Agree totally with that, but once a car is stopped safely behind you there's no need to continue to dazzle him (at night) with brake lights and nor is there any advantage to do so since his car will obscure them to other cars anyway.

Paul O

614 posts

52 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
Ari said:
2. When stopped at traffic lights it feels kindest to pull it into neutral rather than sit in "drive" holding it on the brake.
Thankyou for doing this! There are so many that don't and is nothing more infuriating than being stuck in traffic, in the dark, for half an hour and having to endure this:




Reardy Mister

11,041 posts

91 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
E38Ross said:
PanzerCommander said:
eliot said:
Very few people have experienced a remapped auto gearbox, they are something to behold.
yes The difference between an unmapped and a remapped 'box is frankly astonishing.
care to elaborate? i'm intrigued!
Back in the day we called it a shift kit.


Ari

Original Poster:

7,205 posts

84 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
Paul O said:
Ari said:
2. When stopped at traffic lights it feels kindest to pull it into neutral rather than sit in "drive" holding it on the brake.
Thankyou for doing this! There are so many that don't and is nothing more infuriating than being stuck in traffic, in the dark, for half an hour and having to endure this:

You're welcome! And I agree (but only at night).

PanzerCommander

2,703 posts

87 months

[news] 
Thursday 7th June 2012 quote quote all
E38Ross said:
care to elaborate? i'm intrigued!
Depends on the map, I run a performance map which does a few things to the 'box:
  • Removes all torque management in 1st and 2nd gear
  • Increases shift pressure across the rev range, round town shifts are quicker, and flat out acceleration they are much firmer (I can adjust this +/-25% on the tuner).
  • Under 35mph it doesn't bring the O/D gear in so when you are bimbling around town you get better response from the gearbox
  • Hangs onto gears a bit longer under moderate acceleration (it always shifted at the peak point on the power band on the stock map anyway).
It is just a bit better tbh (wasn't bad before but the improvements are worth it).


eliot

5,324 posts

123 months

[news] 
Friday 8th June 2012 quote quote all
PanzerCommander said:
Depends on the map, I run a performance map which does a few things to the 'box:
  • Removes all torque management in 1st and 2nd gear
  • Increases shift pressure across the rev range, round town shifts are quicker, and flat out acceleration they are much firmer (I can adjust this +/-25% on the tuner).
  • Under 35mph it doesn't bring the O/D gear in so when you are bimbling around town you get better response from the gearbox
  • Hangs onto gears a bit longer under moderate acceleration (it always shifted at the peak point on the power band on the stock map anyway).
It is just a bit better tbh (wasn't bad before but the improvements are worth it).
As above, but on my box (6L80e - VXR8) I opted to leave the torque management switched on. It is there to protect the clutch packs between shifts and having burnt out and rebuilt several other (non electronic) boxes, I felt it was better to leave it as is. Here's a burnt pack out of a my old-school 700r4:


As some above posted, remapping the gearbox is sort of akin to fitting a shift-kit of old, but far more sophisticated and much easier. I detailed how I remapped my box here

redtwin

5,865 posts

51 months

[news] 
Friday 8th June 2012 quote quote all
PanzerCommander said:
Depends on the map, I run a performance map which does a few things to the 'box:
  • Removes all torque management in 1st and 2nd gear
  • Increases shift pressure across the rev range, round town shifts are quicker, and flat out acceleration they are much firmer (I can adjust this +/-25% on the tuner).
  • Under 35mph it doesn't bring the O/D gear in so when you are bimbling around town you get better response from the gearbox
  • Hangs onto gears a bit longer under moderate acceleration (it always shifted at the peak point on the power band on the stock map anyway).
It is just a bit better tbh (wasn't bad before but the improvements are worth it).
Sounds like increased transmission wear and reduced fuel economy to me.



Ari

Original Poster:

7,205 posts

84 months

[news] 
Friday 8th June 2012 quote quote all
eliot said:
As above, but on my box (6L80e - VXR8) I opted to leave the torque management switched on. It is there to protect the clutch packs between shifts and having burnt out and rebuilt several other (non electronic) boxes, I felt it was better to leave it as is. Here's a burnt pack out of a my old-school 700r4:


As some above posted, remapping the gearbox is sort of akin to fitting a shift-kit of old, but far more sophisticated and much easier. I detailed how I remapped my box here
I'm confused. Further up this thread we were told there is no clutch in a conventional auto, it was like two fans facing each other with one speeded up to turn the other.

Now we've got photos of burnt out auto clutches... confused

PanzerCommander

2,703 posts

87 months

[news] 
Friday 8th June 2012 quote quote all
redtwin said:
Sounds like increased transmission wear and reduced fuel economy to me.
Fuel economy is up by 0.7 us MPG (does 16.5 - 17 us mpg) :-) the increase in shift pressures will increase wear yes but as the box is sealed (150,000 mile overhaul intervals) it means dropping it and dismantling it to do a fluid change anyway so it will get new clutch packs etc at that time too, though I will be doing the overhaul at 100,000 miles.
And by torque management I meant the reduction in power that it would normally have in 1st and 2nd gears. Now I have 100% power in all gears smile

Ari said:
I'm confused. Further up this thread we were told there is no clutch in a conventional auto, it was like two fans facing each other with one speeded up to turn the other.

Now we've got photos of burnt out auto clutches... confused
The conventional clutch between the transmission and the engine is replaced with the torque converter. However there are clutches within the 'box to allow it to shift.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmissi...

eliot

5,324 posts

123 months

[news] 
Friday 8th June 2012 quote quote all
The torque convertor replaces the "clutch" found on a manual car. This is what allows the car to "idle" in gear, its just slipping - i.e. you are holding the other fan blade whilst the first one is blowing on it.

Inside the gearbox it still contains gears - or rather planetry gears - and each of these is selected using traditional wet clutches (like a motorbike clutch) or sometimes a band - which as the name suggests is just a piece of friction material around a drum (like a belt) that is clamped against it with a hydraulic piston.

Remember the Sturmey-Archer 3 speed on your push bike? - these are planetry gears, you could could change gear under full load - unlike Derailleur gears where really you need to back of the pedal a bit for a smooth change.

Its these clutches and belts that take a pounding during a shift and have to "hold" the torque once the gear has been selected. Too much torque during a shift results in slippage and wear (burning of the plates seen above).

Modern automatics (electronic based) employ "torque management (TM)" which consists of either retarding the ignition or even closing the throttle a bit to limit the amount of torque going through the gearbox during a shift - this prelongs clutch life (or allows them to cost save on components). The americans seem to love removing TM to get very sharp shifts that "chirp" the tyres - great for the drag strip but heavy on the entire drivetrain.

I believe this is why more and more manufacturers such as BMW are using automatics and torque management to limit drivetrain damage from torque of the big diesel engines, as its cheaper than fitting a strong manual box.


Dig around on youtube - there's a few decent videos (and plenty that will leave you just as confused)

Eliot.

smile

Edited by eliot on Friday 8th June 20:50


Edited by eliot on Friday 8th June 21:04

infradig

912 posts

76 months

[news] 
Friday 8th June 2012 quote quote all
With reference to blinding brakelights question,I've recently spent 6 months driving a couple of different new Mercs and they have a hold function on the footbrake(just give an extra shove on the pedal when stopped)which is great in traffic,especially when combined with start/stop. However the brakelights remain lit,indeed the whole engine stopping at a standstill depends on you keeping your foot on the brake.

Ari

Original Poster:

7,205 posts

84 months

[news] 
Friday 8th June 2012 quote quote all
That's very interesting, thanks chaps.

Although it brings me onto another question. Sorry. smile

When I manually down-shift (coming down a long hill, or maybe slowing at the end of a fast dual carriageway for a roundabout) for a little extra engine braking, years of driving manuals has me instinctively "lifting" the revs with a little pressure on the accelerator to help ease the engine up to higher revs for the lower gear.

A good idea on an auto, or better to let it deal with it itself?

PanzerCommander

2,703 posts

87 months

[news] 
Friday 8th June 2012 quote quote all
Ari said:
That's very interesting, thanks chaps.

Although it brings me onto another question. Sorry. smile

When I manually down-shift (coming down a long hill, or maybe slowing at the end of a fast dual carriageway for a roundabout) for a little extra engine braking, years of driving manuals has me instinctively "lifting" the revs with a little pressure on the accelerator to help ease the engine up to higher revs for the lower gear.

A good idea on an auto, or better to let it deal with it itself?
I always do if I manually select 1,2,3 for going down hill it just seems to bang it into gear otherwise causing the revs to rise sharply, seems that some auto blip and others don't.

craigjm

2,244 posts

69 months

[news] 
Saturday 9th June 2012 quote quote all
Ari said:
That's very interesting, thanks chaps.

Although it brings me onto another question. Sorry. smile

When I manually down-shift (coming down a long hill, or maybe slowing at the end of a fast dual carriageway for a roundabout) for a little extra engine braking, years of driving manuals has me instinctively "lifting" the revs with a little pressure on the accelerator to help ease the engine up to higher revs for the lower gear.

A good idea on an auto, or better to let it deal with it itself?
Again it depends on what auto box you have, some are far more advanced than others and you should just leave them alone to get on with it.

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