RE: Isle of Man TT with Mark Higgins

[GravelBen]

MC Bodge said:

I'm more interested in that BRZ than the bike v car argument.

+1, looks great.

[DanDC5]

Question? What's the fastest lap done by a bike on the TT circuit?

I know Mark Higgins did it in 19mins 56.7 last year in what was supposedly a lightly tweaked road car. Just wondering how much faster a car would need to be to do it, could help with working out what car would be needed to do a similar lap time.

[Guvernator]

ManOpener said:

No, it's also got a great deal to do with their bodywork too. If Pikes Peak cars as fast as you imply over varying circuit styles and race types, then why are they generally solely used for Pikes Peak and not raced in other sprint or hillclimb events? Because they've been specifically engineered for the purpose of tackling that course and that course alone.

I'm not saying that a car could never be as fast as a bike around the TT circuit but it's absurd to claim that a few minor tweaks to a F1 car/Rallycross car/Hillclimb car would see them take the record. They are all set up for a very particular kind of circuit; a type that the TT is not. In order to effectively challenge them you'd need to build something entirely custom and designed specifically for the circuit.

Which means my original point about bikes being faster than cars on the TT still stands, though that isn't to say that this will and would always be the case.

Sorry that's hogwash. A rally car is setup specifically for each circuit it will run on each and every time. This might be gravel, tarmac, long circuits, short circuits, mud etc within a few hours. Gear ratios and suspension tuning can pretty much be done on the fly in most modern motorsport based cars. Hell they can change an entire gearbox, engine or body panels within an hour during a pitstop. Yes the aero might be a bit more tricky but they are just stuck on parts and again designed to be interchangeable. I don't think it would be beyond the realms of possibilty to setup a wrc or even pikes peak car, which is in effect just a more radical rally car, to run on the TT course in a very short space of time if someone had a mind to do it.

I agree pound for pound a stock bike is going to be faster than a car, there is just no way they can compete if you are comparing price but for bike lovers to absolutely flat out deny that a car could go faster than a bike round the TT in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is bizarre. It's like the mentality of those people who used to proclaim the earth was flat. Cars are faster in any other place in the world except it seems for the magical TT where the narrow roads\humps\compressions\magic biker fairy dust all conspire to make it impossible for a car to go fast there. Very bizarre.

[hairykrishna]

DanDC5 said:

Question? What's the fastest lap done by a bike on the TT circuit?

I know Mark Higgins did it in 19mins 56.7 last year in what was supposedly a lightly tweaked road car. Just wondering how much faster a car would need to be to do it, could help with working out what car would be needed to do a similar lap time.

17’12.30 is the outright lap record.

[DanDC5]

So something that needs to be 2 and a half minutes faster. Maybe a tweaked GTR with the same driver might not be too far away? Possibly maybe.

[TonyHetherington]

hairykrishna said:

DanDC5 said:

Question? What's the fastest lap done by a bike on the TT circuit?

I know Mark Higgins did it in 19mins 56.7 last year in what was supposedly a lightly tweaked road car. Just wondering how much faster a car would need to be to do it, could help with working out what car would be needed to do a similar lap time.

17’12.30 is the outright lap record.

When this (identical) discussion came up last year a chap, whose name I forget, put it perfectly. He said "I very much doubt that a lightly breathed on mid-range sports car is the best the 4-wheel community can offer".

He's quite right.

But I think that's the point.

[hairykrishna]

DanDC5 said:

So something that needs to be 2 and a half minutes faster. Maybe a tweaked GTR with the same driver might not be too far away? Possibly maybe.

~15% quicker essentially. If you were out to set a record you wouldn't bother with something like a GTR, excellent as it is as a road car. A real single seat race car would destroy the bike record given the right driver.

[DSE]

hairykrishna said:

~15% quicker essentially. If you were out to set a record you wouldn't bother with something like a GTR, excellent as it is as a road car. A real single seat race car would destroy the bike record given the right driver.

I do wonder why a car manufacturer or race team hasnt done this (if its so easy to do). There is quite a lot of hate for motorcyles from certain parts of the car community (Clarkson fans for example) so it would be good publicity.

If we are into the realm of just trying to beat that time ... a motogp bike would deestroy that time also. The TT bikes arent a free for all (as stated before), they have to conform to the rules.

[DanDC5]

Moto GP bike would be an interesting one to see to be fair.

[hairykrishna]

DSE said:

I do wonder why a car manufacturer or race team hasnt done this (if its so easy to do).

It took Subaru ages to get permission - it was big deal that they got to run at all and they had to jump through a lot of hoops. It's not like a normal race track where you can just hire it for a test day.

[DSE]

hairykrishna said:

It took Subaru ages to get permission - it was big deal that they got to run at all and they had to jump through a lot of hoops. It's not like a normal race track where you can just hire it for a test day.

Really, do you have any evidence for this, links ? I would have thought that the TT punters would love to see a proper car go for a record .... surely it just comes down to money.

[MC Bodge]

DSE said:

If we are into the realm of just trying to beat that time ... a motogp bike would deestroy that time also. The TT bikes arent a free for all (as stated before), they have to conform to the rules.

Moto GP is also constrained by rules.

[DSE]

MC Bodge said:

Moto GP is also constrained by rules.

Indeed but they are alot quicker than the tt bikes. Look at the lap time difference just tbetween the prototypes and the crt teams. Scary.

[hairykrishna]

DSE said:

hairykrishna said:

It took Subaru ages to get permission - it was big deal that they got to run at all and they had to jump through a lot of hoops. It's not like a normal race track where you can just hire it for a test day.

Really, do you have any evidence for this, links ? I would have thought that the TT punters would love to see a proper car go for a record .... surely it just comes down to money.

It was in the evo article which I can't seem to find online. This Telegraph article mentions that Higgins had been trying to get permission, with various backers, for 10 years;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufactur...

[DSE]

hairykrishna said:

It was in the evo article which I can't seem to find online. This Telegraph article mentions that Higgins had been trying to get permission, with various backers, for 10 years;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufactur...

Thanks ! I wonder why, strange ... well as a bike AND car fan I would love to see a sorted car go for a 4 wheel lap record. To average 130 on any track on a bike or car is mental. To do what they do on a bike is crazy and to be admired (only fully appreciated when you have ridden a bike fast).

[Zumbruk]

DanDC5 said:

Question? What's the fastest lap done by a bike on the TT circuit?

I know Mark Higgins did it in 19mins 56.7 last year in what was supposedly a lightly tweaked road car. Just wondering how much faster a car would need to be to do it, could help with working out what car would be needed to do a similar lap time.

http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database/TT-Records/Lap-Records.aspx

Outright;
John McGuinness
Honda CBR1000RR
2009
17’12.30
131.578mph

[7DWM]

DSE said:

hairykrishna said:

It took Subaru ages to get permission - it was big deal that they got to run at all and they had to jump through a lot of hoops. It's not like a normal race track where you can just hire it for a test day.

Really, do you have any evidence for this, links ? I would have thought that the TT punters would love to see a proper car go for a record .... surely it just comes down to money.

It's probably just down to the danger of a car trying to do it. When Dave Jeffries was killed his bike bounced off a house wall and then took a telegraph pole down, that was 160kg of bike doing 150mph or so. If 1000kg of car did the same it would take most of the street with it..... As nearly demonstrated by Mark Higgins last year!

[ManOpener]

Guvernator said:

I don't think it would be beyond the realms of possibilty to setup a wrc or even pikes peak car, which is in effect just a more radical rally car, to run on the TT course in a very short space of time if someone had a mind to do it.

I've never said it's downright impossible, just that I don't think it would be anywhere near as easy as you imply. The modifications required to make it competitive would essentially render it no longer a rallycross/wrc/pikes peak car. For the record, I think it probably would be possible to best the bike times given a "no rules" approach and relatively few restrictions on what could be run- I just think that despite your protestations re-gearing a rally car for 70-200mph sprinting, or modifying a GT or prototype racer to handle the dips and crests would be far more difficult than your "oh, lets just swap some gear ratios and tweak the aero" comments imply. A few hours worth of tweaking will not turn a Pikes Peak car into a competitive circuit racer, nor would they a circuit racer into a competitive rally car.

Guvernator said:

I agree pound for pound a stock bike is going to be faster than a car, there is just no way they can compete if you are comparing price but for bike lovers to absolutely flat out deny that a car could go faster than a bike round the TT in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is bizarre. It's like the mentality of those people who used to proclaim the earth was flat. Cars are faster in any other place in the world except it seems for the magical TT where the narrow roads\humps\compressions\magic biker fairy dust all conspire to make it impossible for a car to go fast there. Very bizarre.

I'm sorry but there is no "contradictory evidence". Contradictory evidence in this example would be a car besting the existing record lap time. Which it hasn't (and that's not to say that it wouldn't or couldn't, but it hasn't). I have never claimed that it would be impossible for a car to be faster around the IoM circuit than a bike as that's just as idiotic as claiming that "a car" categorically is faster despite this never being demonstrated. I'm stating simple facts- that thus far bikes have been proven to be faster than cars on the circuit.

I'm not sure any "car" in the conventional sense of the word could best a road legal sportsbike around a go-kart track, by the way.

[MC Bodge]

I like bikes, I like cars.

I'm not sure that it would take that much work to convert a no-holds-barred Pikes Peak (high altitude, tight corners, now all asphalt) winning car to go around the Isle of Man fairly quickly though.

ManOpener said:

I'm not sure any "car" in the conventional sense of the word could best a road legal sportsbike around a go-kart track, by the way.

you may not be saying this, but I'm not sure that something like a Fireblade would be that effective against a high-powered 4x4 rally replica around a tight kart track.... It would be fun on a powerful, light supermoto though.

[hairykrishna]

ManOpener said:

Guvernator said:

I don't think it would be beyond the realms of possibilty to setup a wrc or even pikes peak car, which is in effect just a more radical rally car, to run on the TT course in a very short space of time if someone had a mind to do it.

I've never said it's downright impossible, just that I don't think it would be anywhere near as easy as you imply. The modifications required to make it competitive would essentially render it no longer a rallycross/wrc/pikes peak car. For the record, I think it probably would be possible to best the bike times given a "no rules" approach and relatively few restrictions on what could be run- I just think that despite your protestations re-gearing a rally car for 70-200mph sprinting, or modifying a GT or prototype racer to handle the dips and crests would be far more difficult than your "oh, lets just swap some gear ratios and tweak the aero" comments imply. A few hours worth of tweaking will not turn a Pikes Peak car into a competitive circuit racer, nor would they a circuit racer into a competitive rally car.

Conversely, I think you overestimate the required modifications. There are quite a few tuned evo's and similar which will hit 200mph with no aero changes. The gearboxes will take whatever ratios you like. They won't be carrying much downforce but still more than the bikes (i.e. essentially zero).

I think a single seater, F1 style, hillclimber is the best starting point not a rally car. The surface is no worse than most hillclimb tracks and the fact that they'll have to lift for a couple of the jumps will be more than compensated for by the fact that it'd be much, much faster everywhere else. Bigger tank, change the ratios, done. It'll lose a bit at the top end because the aero will be too aggressive but I doubt that'd matter.