RE: Isle of Man TT with Mark Higgins

[PaulMoor]

I love the fact that people are talking about F1 cars and de-restricting rally cars to go faster that TT bikes. You do know TT bikes are not a free for all right? They are much more like touring cars than some mental one off pikes peak job.

[thiscocks]

PaulMoor said:

I love the fact that people are talking about F1 cars and de-restricting rally cars to go faster that TT bikes. You do know TT bikes are not a free for all right? They are much more like touring cars than some mental one off pikes peak job.

If thats the case then one of these would give the bike some hassle

[thiscocks]

tight5 said:

Use Psychology said:

ok, we'll just mount the aero to the unsprung part of the car and run two chassis (the bodywork on the hubs, ground effect you want, the suspension can have decent travel then. problem solved.

go on then , do it !

Colin Chapman already did 30 years ago

[Guvernator]

DanDC5 said:

tight5 said:

Guvernator said:

1) Acceleration - Same as a bikes

you funny !

Not sure about a WRC car, but a top spec Rallycross car would be with it to about 80-90ish. Sure Liam Doran's C4 was timed at something like 2.2 to 60. I know short gearing helps on that one but even with longer gearing it should still be close. it just won't have the top speed to match the bikes.

Exactly, not sure what is so funny? A rally car with turbo restrictors so only putting out about 300bhp will hit 60 in less than 3 seconds, 100 in twice that and thats on gravel, on tarmac they are even quicker. A Pikes peak car will do 60 in 1.6 seconds on gravel and is quicker accelerating than an F1 car (and I think we've all seen what an F1 car can do to a bike in a drag race) Some of the bikes intermediate or in gear times will probably be quicker but there won't be a lot in it. 4 wheels vs 1

[KM666]

caine100 said:

To beat the bikes you'd need a driver who is willing to die to prove a point and something like this:

Awww beat me to it, I was gonna post a picture of the Escudo of old...

[7DWM]

PaulMoor said:

I love the fact that people are talking about F1 cars and de-restricting rally cars to go faster that TT bikes. You do know TT bikes are not a free for all right? They are much more like touring cars than some mental one off pikes peak job.

There's the point, what if any, production car do we think could lap the TT course at 129mph like a Superstock bike can?

[DSE]

Guvernator said:

Exactly, not sure what is so funny? A rally car with turbo restrictors so only putting out about 300bhp will hit 60 in less than 3 seconds, 100 in twice that and thats on gravel, on tarmac they are even quicker. A Pikes peak car will do 60 in 1.6 seconds on gravel and is quicker accelerating than an F1 car (and I think we've all seen what an F1 car can do to a bike in a drag race) Some of the bikes intermediate or in gear times will probably be quicker but there won't be a lot in it. 4 wheels vs 1

You are quoting 0-60 and 0-100 which arent really important on a lap of the tt. all you need to beat a £14K superstock bike is a pikes peak car .... love it. Before anyone has a go I love cars AND bikes because they give very different experiences.

An interesting point on the bikes vs f1 cars. There are a couple of circuits where the f1 cars come out of a particular corner onto a straight alot faster (+50 mph) than the motogp bikes but the bikes still hit a much higher top speed down the same straight. That is mental accleration.

[Use Psychology]

what production car is as similar to its race equivalent as such a bike though?

[rhinochopig]

7DWM said:

PaulMoor said:

I love the fact that people are talking about F1 cars and de-restricting rally cars to go faster that TT bikes. You do know TT bikes are not a free for all right? They are much more like touring cars than some mental one off pikes peak job.

There's the point, what if any, production car do we think could lap the TT course at 129mph like a Superstock bike can?

Let me tell you how this ends...

Car group: Production Radical / Caparo etc. would be faster.
Bike group: What about the bumps
Car group: There would be so much in hand that the car could slow for the bumpy bits + side cars with zero ground clearance manage fine.
Bike group: But they're silly money.
Car group: So is a works TT bike - £100k +
Bike group: But a fettled MGP bike would be faster.
Car group: But then so would an LMP / F1 car
Bike group: An F1 car wouldn't work due to the bumps.
Car group: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlxuzLGqT7U

The debate then moves onto comparing the times between the two landmarks and the F1 car comes out much much faster.

Bike group: But that bit is smooth.
Car group: Sidecars
Bike group: They're shorter WB so not affected.
Car group: but the car could go slowly due over these sections due to the time it will have in hand.
Bike group: Ballaugh Bridge!
Car group: It's not that steep
Bike group: Yes it is
Car group: No it isn't

Repeat ad nauseum.

[Guvernator]

7DWM said:

There's the point, what if any, production car do we think could lap the TT course at 129mph like a Superstock bike can?

Ariel Atom?

Also comparing a sports bike to a road car isn't really comparing like for like. A sportsbike is built to really do one thing and one thing only, be really light and go really fast. The criteria\objectives for a normal road car are a lot more complicated than that.

The only thing in the car world really comparible i.e. designed towards the same sort of goals as a sportsbike is something like the afore mentioned Atom which is quicker than a sportsbike on any track you care to name. What do I win?

[DSE]

Guvernator said:

Ariel Atom?

Also comparing a sports bike to a road car isn't really comparing like for like. A sportsbike is built to really do one thing and one thing only, be really light and go really fast. The criteria\objectives for a normal road car are a lot more complicated than that.

The only thing in the car world really comparible i.e. designed towards the same sort of goals as a sportsbike is something like the afore mentioned Atom which is quicker than a sportsbike on any track you care to name. What do I win?

comment removed due to obvious trolling above :O)

Edited by DSE on Thursday 7th June 17:32

[arollingstone]

Guvernator said:

DanDC5 said:

tight5 said:

Guvernator said:

1) Acceleration - Same as a bikes

you funny !

Not sure about a WRC car, but a top spec Rallycross car would be with it to about 80-90ish. Sure Liam Doran's C4 was timed at something like 2.2 to 60. I know short gearing helps on that one but even with longer gearing it should still be close. it just won't have the top speed to match the bikes.

Exactly, not sure what is so funny? A rally car with turbo restrictors so only putting out about 300bhp will hit 60 in less than 3 seconds, 100 in twice that and thats on gravel, on tarmac they are even quicker. A Pikes peak car will do 60 in 1.6 seconds on gravel and is quicker accelerating than an F1 car (and I think we've all seen what an F1 car can do to a bike in a drag race) Some of the bikes intermediate or in gear times will probably be quicker but there won't be a lot in it. 4 wheels vs 1

I think your forgetting the speed at which these chaps lap. Ok, so the car might keep up with it till around 100, but these bike are hitting 200mph seconds after leaving the corners.

[DSE]

Use Psychology said:

what production car is as similar to its race equivalent as such a bike though?

GTR at the nurburgring 24hr, perhaps.

[JFULLER]

Never mind the bike versus car argument, is Mark Higgins testing the BRZ for Subaru to compete?
Rallying?
Racing?

[hairykrishna]

arollingstone said:

I think your forgetting the speed at which these chaps lap. Ok, so the car might keep up with it till around 100, but these bike are hitting 200mph seconds after leaving the corners.

Closer to 20 seconds 0-200 for a fast litre bike I think. Monstrously fast, but an F1 car will do it in 12. I assume bonkers pikes peak specials are in a similar range.

[Mr2Mike]

Guvernator said:

Exactly, not sure what is so funny? A rally car with turbo restrictors so only putting out about 300bhp will hit 60 in less than 3 seconds, 100 in twice that and thats on gravel, on tarmac they are even quicker.

What's the top end of a rally car geared to achieve those times? I suspect nowhere near that of a superstock bike?

[ManOpener]

hairykrishna said:

arollingstone said:

I think your forgetting the speed at which these chaps lap. Ok, so the car might keep up with it till around 100, but these bike are hitting 200mph seconds after leaving the corners.

Closer to 20 seconds 0-200 for a fast litre bike I think. Monstrously fast, but an F1 car will do it in 12. I assume bonkers pikes peak specials are in a similar range.

Pikes peak cars aren't geared to do 200mph. The highest speed ever atained on the hill is about 130mph. 0-130 I guarentee they will be insanely quick, but I doubt they'll go any faster.

[Guvernator]

ManOpener said:

Pikes peak cars aren't geared to do 200mph. The highest speed ever atained on the hill is about 130mph. 0-130 I guarentee they will be insanely quick, but I doubt they'll go any faster.

That's purely down to gearing. Change the gear ratios to give you the higher top end that is required and hey presto. Sure you might loose a second here or there in acceleration times when you play about with the ratios but for a car that can hit 200kph in 4.9 seconds and has 1000 bhp, I don't think that is going to slow it down too much.

[MC Bodge]

I'm more interested in that BRZ than the bike v car argument.

[ManOpener]

Guvernator said:

That's purely down to gearing.

No, it's also got a great deal to do with their bodywork too. If Pikes Peak cars as fast as you imply over varying circuit styles and race types, then why are they generally solely used for Pikes Peak and not raced in other sprint or hillclimb events? Because they've been specifically engineered for the purpose of tackling that course and that course alone.

I'm not saying that a car could never be as fast as a bike around the TT circuit but it's absurd to claim that a few minor tweaks to a F1 car/Rallycross car/Hillclimb car would see them take the record. They are all set up for a very particular kind of circuit; a type that the TT is not. In order to effectively challenge them you'd need to build something entirely custom and designed specifically for the circuit.

Which means my original point about bikes being faster than cars on the TT still stands, though that isn't to say that this will and would always be the case.