RE: Dany Bahar: terminated
Discussion
British Beef said:
I actually think in this light a £50k Exige is a bargain, and if it makes Lotus good return on each unit sold, then bloody good for lotus!!!
Exactly so. I think, given its performance and peers, £50k-odd is about right. The £35k Mikeyboy is advocating would be a steal.
Scuffers said:
exactly, and the sad reality is that if it was not the Dannyboy pissing all the money (for suppliers etc) up the various walls, the Exige S would have hit the road several months ago (if not 12+).
Just to be clear, the Exige S was well in plan before he appeared on the scene.
It's a genuine shame all the faffing has delayed it for so long but it's here now at least and the convertible is due shortly is it not? Let's hope there's more good news for Lotus on the way now, Kimi's 1st win please this weekend Just to be clear, the Exige S was well in plan before he appeared on the scene.
The important point is that the owners see a real future for Lotus. A good engineer-CEO will see the need for specialists in other disciplines to support him (or her)to make the business successful. I have owned a 1970s elan for many years and it is still in many ways relevant for today. Let's hope the new team uses innovative ideas, creativity and good engineered lightness to continue providing exciting and highly efficient cars.
marshalla said:
What an amazingly sanctimonious, crowing and one sided view that is. I'm no fan of Bahar but Saward comes across as even worse in that article.Alfa numeric said:
What an amazingly sanctimonious, crowing and one sided view that is. I'm no fan of Bahar but Saward comes across as even worse in that article.
Isn't this the chap who has a vested interest in seeing Lotus fail with their plan to sell cars into Asia?He certainly comes across as a bag swinger.
I can't agree that the Exige is a car that competes with the likes of a GT3 RS or M3 GTS.
Just because EVO puts it in a group test with them doesn't mean thats where it belongs.
If you are simply saying that it is a lightened track focused versions of an existing cars that are at the end of/ended their lives, then why not compare it to a F430 Stradale, Lambo Superlegera? price being no object in EVO reviews they may as well have done.
Its natural competitors were, and its worth remembering it was a model you could buy in various forms over the last 12 years, the high end Caterhams, Ariels and they were of a like price.
As for development costs. Its actually is very important to keep the price close to this. the "what the market will bear" does not work for brands like Lotus, or Audi for that matter. They are not Ferrari, Porsche or Lambo. Case in point, Nissan's GT-R. If it were able t be priced at any level then logically the Exige would have sold many more units when cheaper, and as the price gradually rose (perversly to most car's pricing histories) it should have become more and more profitable.
It is even more important when you are trying to convert someone from being a Porsche buyer to buying your product instead that you keep your margins low to make something about the car more appealing than simply dynamics. Lets remember that that was what Bahar was aiming at, and higher.
I can go and buy the new Cayman in a few months for what I reckon will be about 8k less. Thast completely new, from wheels to ECU and everything in between.
I think the Exige is a car I would love to own, especially drive, but its not NEW enough to justify a £52 price tag in its market.
There seems to be a feeling that I am attacking the Exige S, I'm not, the reviews are excellent. I'm sure it will be brilliant.
My issue is that Bahar made the cars more and more expensive without ever delivering a NEW product. If that were how the car industry worked we'd all still be driving austin 7s.
Just because EVO puts it in a group test with them doesn't mean thats where it belongs.
If you are simply saying that it is a lightened track focused versions of an existing cars that are at the end of/ended their lives, then why not compare it to a F430 Stradale, Lambo Superlegera? price being no object in EVO reviews they may as well have done.
Its natural competitors were, and its worth remembering it was a model you could buy in various forms over the last 12 years, the high end Caterhams, Ariels and they were of a like price.
As for development costs. Its actually is very important to keep the price close to this. the "what the market will bear" does not work for brands like Lotus, or Audi for that matter. They are not Ferrari, Porsche or Lambo. Case in point, Nissan's GT-R. If it were able t be priced at any level then logically the Exige would have sold many more units when cheaper, and as the price gradually rose (perversly to most car's pricing histories) it should have become more and more profitable.
It is even more important when you are trying to convert someone from being a Porsche buyer to buying your product instead that you keep your margins low to make something about the car more appealing than simply dynamics. Lets remember that that was what Bahar was aiming at, and higher.
I can go and buy the new Cayman in a few months for what I reckon will be about 8k less. Thast completely new, from wheels to ECU and everything in between.
I think the Exige is a car I would love to own, especially drive, but its not NEW enough to justify a £52 price tag in its market.
There seems to be a feeling that I am attacking the Exige S, I'm not, the reviews are excellent. I'm sure it will be brilliant.
My issue is that Bahar made the cars more and more expensive without ever delivering a NEW product. If that were how the car industry worked we'd all still be driving austin 7s.
British Beef said:
I actually think in this light a £50k Exige is a bargain
People get carried away with this "Ooo but it uses someone else engine" malarkey.. Let's face it. The Audi R8 effectively used a Lambo engine, Weissman uses/used a BMW engine and about 9/10's of the worlds car manufacturers co-develop and share engines.In 2012, £50k for that kind of car, is a cracking deal. Cars should be judged on their true merit, not just find a worthless issue, just so you can run the company down.
DonkeyApple said:
Alfa numeric said:
What an amazingly sanctimonious, crowing and one sided view that is. I'm no fan of Bahar but Saward comes across as even worse in that article.
Isn't this the chap who has a vested interest in seeing Lotus fail with their plan to sell cars into Asia?He certainly comes across as a bag swinger.
......That said some of his stuff is quite interesting.
Fire99 said:
British Beef said:
I actually think in this light a £50k Exige is a bargain
People get carried away with this "Ooo but it uses someone else engine" malarkey.. Let's face it. The Audi R8 effectively used a Lambo engine, Weissman uses/used a BMW engine and about 9/10's of the worlds car manufacturers co-develop and share engines.In 2012, £50k for that kind of car, is a cracking deal. Cars should be judged on their true merit, not just find a worthless issue, just so you can run the company down.
though if you are going to use examples of engine sharing, Audi using a Lambo engine is better than Lambo using an Audi engine. And the Weismann engine was an M division engine. Neither of them were getting an engine straight out of a Camry. Perhaps a better example would be Zonda using an off the shelf AMG engine?
also not running the company down. Just the dumbass that was running the company with a wild plan that didn't fit the company.
I should add, you have to sell cars to make a car company work. I would be interested to see how the sales figures of Lotus have done under Bahar, with obvious consideration to the fact we have been in recession globally.
Mikeyboy said:
manufacturers share platforms and engines regulalrly to keep costs down, not raise the price of their cars usually
though if you are going to use examples of engine sharing, Audi using a Lambo engine is better than Lambo using an Audi engine. And the Weismann engine was an M division engine. Neither of them were getting an engine straight out of a Camry. Perhaps a better example would be Zonda using an off the shelf AMG engine?
also not running the company down. Just the dumbass that was running the company with a wild plan that didn't fit the company.
I should add, you have to sell cars to make a car company work. I would be interested to see how the sales figures of Lotus have done under Bahar, with obvious consideration to the fact we have been in recession globally.
You're comparing apples with oranges. The Weismann is way up the price league so I think it's safe to say an M badged engine would be on the cards.though if you are going to use examples of engine sharing, Audi using a Lambo engine is better than Lambo using an Audi engine. And the Weismann engine was an M division engine. Neither of them were getting an engine straight out of a Camry. Perhaps a better example would be Zonda using an off the shelf AMG engine?
also not running the company down. Just the dumbass that was running the company with a wild plan that didn't fit the company.
I should add, you have to sell cars to make a car company work. I would be interested to see how the sales figures of Lotus have done under Bahar, with obvious consideration to the fact we have been in recession globally.
Lotus is still a low volume, relatively low price, manufacturer and at the end of the day, if the engine does what is required, does it matter what badge is on it. I don't grumble that an Ultima has a Ford or General Motors engine under the bonnet.
I agree that Bahar got lost in the gloss and Lotus a) seemed to lose its identity b) had many schemes but gave little confidence that the company would ever deliver.
There are some aspects of his plan that I agree with, but sadly the P.R was lousy and consumer confidence was naff all.
Mikeyboy said:
I can't agree that the Exige is a car that competes with the likes of a GT3 RS
Actually, I think that's the only place where the Porsche and Lotus model ranges do intersect. Certainly those are the only cars Porsche make which I would consider choosing over a Lotus, and I suspect that the GT3 RS buyers are the only subset of Porsche customers who would seriously consider choosing a Lotus over a Porsche.Fire99 said:
You're comparing apples with oranges. The Weismann is way up the price league so I think it's safe to say an M badged engine would be on the cards.
Lotus is still a low volume, relatively low price, manufacturer and at the end of the day, if the engine does what is required, does it matter what badge is on it. I don't grumble that an Ultima has a Ford or General Motors engine under the bonnet.
I agree that Bahar got lost in the gloss and Lotus a) seemed to lose its identity b) had many schemes but gave little confidence that the company would ever deliver.
There are some aspects of his plan that I agree with, but sadly the P.R was lousy and consumer confidence was naff all.
To be fair I don't think I am, Weismann after all are hardly a major manufaturer either.Lotus is still a low volume, relatively low price, manufacturer and at the end of the day, if the engine does what is required, does it matter what badge is on it. I don't grumble that an Ultima has a Ford or General Motors engine under the bonnet.
I agree that Bahar got lost in the gloss and Lotus a) seemed to lose its identity b) had many schemes but gave little confidence that the company would ever deliver.
There are some aspects of his plan that I agree with, but sadly the P.R was lousy and consumer confidence was naff all.
Also persnally, and I can see that it doesn't look that way from what i just wrote, I have absolutely no problem with a bought in engine, indeed I think they are a better idea than slotting in one that breaks a lot but sounded like a good idea that you couldn't develop a la TVR.
I just don't see why a consumer has to pay the price of a Camry for its engine in the context of the Exige.
Alfa numeric said:
The engine used in the Zonda cost Pagani far more than the one used in the Huayra due to the fact that each one is a bespoke build. The Huayra unit is more "off the shelf".
Only because AMG no longer make the engine used in the Zonda so it now has to be hand-built to order.Mikeyboy is correct that when the Zonda was first released, the engine was pretty much off-the-shelf.
Not entirely sure what this proves either way, though.
JonRB said:
And yet it still managed to hold its own in a recent EVO group test where the next cheapest car was £84k and the most expensive was £130k+. I'd call that a bargain.
Is this the same 'the thrill of money' Evo where Pagani-owning multimillionaire boss-man Lord Harry Metcalfe writes ludicrously overblown puff-pieces for any CEO he deems to be spending suitably grandiose amounts of company expenses on champagne hospitality, private jets, watches and designer office furniture? Alfa numeric said:
The engine used in the Zonda cost Pagani far more than the one used in the Huayra due to the fact that each one is a bespoke build. The Huayra unit is more "off the shelf".
No the reason the Zonda engines cost them more in the last few models was because the AMG engine they chose for the first Zondas was discontinued by AMG/MB and they had to get them specially built as a result. The original ones were the same as fitted to S600s etc the M120ETA, JonRB has already said this I see, and rightly he concludes that it has little relevance anyway.
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