RE: Dany Bahar: terminated
Discussion
Two Nissan connections in two days? It would be odd to sell to them immediately after getting rid of the CEO. A conspiracy theorist would suggest maybe DB's contract had some wildly expensive clause dictating the terms if Lotus is sold on.
So long as they survive to produce new cars..
So long as they survive to produce new cars..
JonRB said:
Given that Nissan already have their Z-cars and the Skyline GT-R, why would they want Lotus cars?
Lotus made those cars handle, and the rest of Nissan's range is in dire need of an image makeover. They've also got a new Focus-sized hatchback in the pipeline - a fiercely competitive market sector, probably THE most, and it'll have to make an instant impact in order to do well against the Focus, Golf and Astra - also, Nissan owns Renault, which is wanting to relaunch Alpine from scratch - they'll need platforms and engines. I can see Lotus and Alpine sister models as a result.This is probably rubbish, but, with the current market dominated worldwide by the Mazda MX5/Miata, there must be room for a competitor product just well enough differentiated to find 3000 - 4000 homes a year?
Especially as no one is offering a budget priced mid-engined sports car at present?
If Lotus were able to refine the Elise incrementally, using new technologies as and when available to highlight their innovation and engineering expertise, and build it properly, then there's a market that would (probably) look at spending 10% to 20% over MX5 prices for the perceived better engineering and performance. Take a look at the comments on the VX220 article elsethread (new word - poor grammar).
I speak as a MR2 owner / enthusiast, who would like to move up the performance ladder but baulks at the weird entry/exit dance required by Elise ownership. Also, I like my SMT gearbox and aircon, good heater, A/C, Toyota build quality etc etc. But none of that is beyond a committed specialist company.
Especially as no one is offering a budget priced mid-engined sports car at present?
If Lotus were able to refine the Elise incrementally, using new technologies as and when available to highlight their innovation and engineering expertise, and build it properly, then there's a market that would (probably) look at spending 10% to 20% over MX5 prices for the perceived better engineering and performance. Take a look at the comments on the VX220 article elsethread (new word - poor grammar).
I speak as a MR2 owner / enthusiast, who would like to move up the performance ladder but baulks at the weird entry/exit dance required by Elise ownership. Also, I like my SMT gearbox and aircon, good heater, A/C, Toyota build quality etc etc. But none of that is beyond a committed specialist company.
The Don of Croy said:
This is probably rubbish, but, with the current market dominated worldwide by the Mazda MX5/Miata, there must be room for a competitor product just well enough differentiated to find 3000 - 4000 homes a year?
Especially as no one is offering a budget priced mid-engined sports car at present?
If Lotus were able to refine the Elise incrementally, using new technologies as and when available to highlight their innovation and engineering expertise, and build it properly, then there's a market that would (probably) look at spending 10% to 20% over MX5 prices for the perceived better engineering and performance. Take a look at the comments on the VX220 article elsethread (new word - poor grammar).
I speak as a MR2 owner / enthusiast, who would like to move up the performance ladder but baulks at the weird entry/exit dance required by Elise ownership. Also, I like my SMT gearbox and aircon, good heater, A/C, Toyota build quality etc etc. But none of that is beyond a committed specialist company.
Yes, there is a place for a low volume maker like Lotus (ie <10,000 cars PA) the problem is that you cannot compete with Mazda making MX5/Baby Elans, the cost of manufacture for low volume is huge compared to mass-production.Especially as no one is offering a budget priced mid-engined sports car at present?
If Lotus were able to refine the Elise incrementally, using new technologies as and when available to highlight their innovation and engineering expertise, and build it properly, then there's a market that would (probably) look at spending 10% to 20% over MX5 prices for the perceived better engineering and performance. Take a look at the comments on the VX220 article elsethread (new word - poor grammar).
I speak as a MR2 owner / enthusiast, who would like to move up the performance ladder but baulks at the weird entry/exit dance required by Elise ownership. Also, I like my SMT gearbox and aircon, good heater, A/C, Toyota build quality etc etc. But none of that is beyond a committed specialist company.
Lotus need a new Elise, and it needs to get back to what it was originally intended for, ie. a second 'fun' car, not an everyday one.
it then needs to get the Esprit out, and it better be good, ie. NOT underpowered, over weight, poorly made, badly spec'ed, it needs to 'win' using the top-trumps criteria, as well as having 'Lotus' handling etc.
if it meets this criteria, then yes, they can put a £100K price tag on it, if not, then it will be the next Evora, ie. a nice car but one that's over-priced and does not sell.
Scuffers said:
if not, then it will be the next Evora, ie. a nice car but one that's over-priced and does not sell.
And let's not forget the Europa too. Half the problem with the Europa was that despite being marketed as a Tourer, it wasn't significantly easier to get into than an Elise / Exige, wasn't sufficiently more comfortable, was expensive, and wasn't really fast enough to compete with the rivals its price put it again. Scuffers said:
it then needs to get the Esprit out, and it better be good, ie. NOT underpowered, over weight, poorly made, badly spec'ed, it needs to 'win' using the top-trumps criteria, as well as having 'Lotus' handling etc.
This is a well put point. If the team behind the Esprit have not specced it based around a pack of Top Trumps then it's doomed to failure. Potential owners need to have stats to hand to justify their purchase over a Fezza, Porker, Macca etc and just saying it goes round corners isn't going to be enough.JonRB said:
Scuffers said:
if not, then it will be the next Evora, ie. a nice car but one that's over-priced and does not sell.
And let's not forget the Europa too. Half the problem with the Europa was that despite being marketed as a Tourer, it wasn't significantly easier to get into than an Elise / Exige, wasn't sufficiently more comfortable, was expensive, and wasn't really fast enough to compete with the rivals its price put it again. the Europa is actually a nice car, they really f**ked it up by trying to sell it as something it patently was not.
I remember having the same conversation with one of their marketing people at the time, with him trying to tell me it was not just a re-bodied VX, blar blar blar, when that's exactly what it was.
I actually though it looked a lot nicer and at the right money, I am sure it would have sold, in the end, how many did they sell? <50? yet another joke, you would think that their sale/marketing idiots would learn....
Scuffers said:
I actually though it looked a lot nicer and at the right money, I am sure it would have sold, in the end, how many did they sell? <50? yet another joke, you would think that their sale/marketing idiots would learn....
Oh, I quite agree; I thought it was quite a handsome car. It just failed to deliver on so many of its promises though. 
DonkeyApple said:
Scuffers said:
it then needs to get the Esprit out, and it better be good, ie. NOT underpowered, over weight, poorly made, badly spec'ed, it needs to 'win' using the top-trumps criteria, as well as having 'Lotus' handling etc.
This is a well put point. If the team behind the Esprit have not specced it based around a pack of Top Trumps then it's doomed to failure. Potential owners need to have stats to hand to justify their purchase over a Fezza, Porker, Macca etc and just saying it goes round corners isn't going to be enough.So, it'll be more powerful than the Ferrari 458 Italia, Lamborghini Gallardo and Audi R8 V10 for starters. In terms of power-to-weight ratio it'll blow them all into the gutter. I really wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with something along the lines of the Noble M600 to be honest, only with the immediately-responsive, smooth-power-curve engine traits you only get with a normally-aspirated unit. Build it to an acceptable enough standard and it could be absolutely superb.
The original Turbo Esprit was the car that put Lotus into contention with Porsche in the Eighties, selling well in the USA and creating a very strong image. Performance-wise it was somewhere between a Ferrari 328 and a Testarossa, but on price it undercut the 328. I think the new Esprit, in the spirit of the original, could do the same. If it manages to snap at the heels of an Aventador for a price that wouldn't get you a Gallardo, and unlike a Gallardo offers compact dimensions and handling that's easier to exploit on track, I can see them selling loads.
think you have kind of missed the point..
yes, it will be great if the new Esprit hit's those targets, BUT, who want's to put money on that happening?
Also, let's face reality here, nobody buys a Lambo/458/McLaren to go on track with it, they buy them to pose round in, so they HAVE to be usable, reliable road cars as well as being fast....
For example, a lot of people that have high spec'ed Honda Elise's have Ferrari's/Lambo's and found them useless on track, so brought the Elise to fill that need, and drive about in the Ferrari/Lambo to get to the track etc.
Yes, the Esprit needs to do OK on track, but it's unlikely that 99% of the potential owners will every use one for that.
(kind of reminds me the first time I drive a Sport 350 round Donington, the brakes gave up after 3 laps!)
yes, it will be great if the new Esprit hit's those targets, BUT, who want's to put money on that happening?
Also, let's face reality here, nobody buys a Lambo/458/McLaren to go on track with it, they buy them to pose round in, so they HAVE to be usable, reliable road cars as well as being fast....
For example, a lot of people that have high spec'ed Honda Elise's have Ferrari's/Lambo's and found them useless on track, so brought the Elise to fill that need, and drive about in the Ferrari/Lambo to get to the track etc.
Yes, the Esprit needs to do OK on track, but it's unlikely that 99% of the potential owners will every use one for that.
(kind of reminds me the first time I drive a Sport 350 round Donington, the brakes gave up after 3 laps!)
Scuffers said:
Yes, there is a place for a low volume maker like Lotus (ie <10,000 cars PA) the problem is that you cannot compete with Mazda making MX5/Baby Elans, the cost of manufacture for low volume is huge compared to mass-production.
exactly.The cost of development and meeting the moving targets of Type Approval and emissions etc is horrendous and the cost of doing it is the same whether you build 1 car or 1 million cars.
IMHO Lotus has expanded beyond its own comfort zone.
Making low volume specialist cars profitably is only possible if you have a very small overhead and costs.
Having a very large production facility is a burden.
All factories need to run at a certain output to be efficient but unfortunately this is in excess of the demand for the product they are currently making.
To make a new product will cost milions and may still not achieve the sales required to run an efficient factory.
Only a serious downsizing or a mainstream,volume product can save them IMHO.
Scuffers said:
that's not the only option, look at what McLaren are doing....
McLaren covered it's development costs by charging Mercedes to build SLRs.A car for which MB picked up the developmet costs by selling mainstream, volume cars.
Most of McLaren overheads are covered by a business that already existed even before the MB deal.
Its production volumes do not exceed demand (at the moment)
odyssey2200 said:
Scuffers said:
that's not the only option, look at what McLaren are doing....
McLaren covered it's development costs by charging Mercedes to build SLRs.A car for which MB picked up the developmet costs by selling mainstream, volume cars.
Most of McLaren overheads are covered by a business that already existed even before the MB deal.
Its production volumes do not exceed demand (at the moment)
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff