RE: Dany Bahar: terminated
Discussion
jackal said:
A real shame. More negative press and another false start for a brand that needs to be completely reborn to survive in the modern age.
Let's hope this engineer bloke has a plan as ambitious and radical as Danny's because one thing's for certain, if lotus just carry on making highly expensive to produce niche enthusiasts cars like the exige and evora which major on 'ride and handling' at the expense of aspirational status, cars that are as costly as their tried and tested peers but with poorer percieved quality and reliability, they will be discarded, dumped, dead and buried within weeks.
Agreed. I don't believe that Lotus 5 year and 4/5 car plan was simply Bahar's. This is something developed by Lotus management led by Bahar. Let's hope this engineer bloke has a plan as ambitious and radical as Danny's because one thing's for certain, if lotus just carry on making highly expensive to produce niche enthusiasts cars like the exige and evora which major on 'ride and handling' at the expense of aspirational status, cars that are as costly as their tried and tested peers but with poorer percieved quality and reliability, they will be discarded, dumped, dead and buried within weeks.
Personally I think the overall vision to create a modular range of sportscars makes perfect sense (exactly what McLaren are doing) and has the potential to result in a competitive and profitable Lotus.
Good luck to them.
sunsurfer said:
Agreed. I don't believe that Lotus 5 year and 4/5 car plan was simply Bahar's. This is something developed by Lotus management led by Bahar.
Personally I think the overall vision to create a modular range of sportscars makes perfect sense (exactly what McLaren are doing) and has the potential to result in a competitive and profitable Lotus.
Good luck to them.
I think where Lotus should have been aiming, and still should is to make an MX5 alike, you know like they did in the 60s Personally I think the overall vision to create a modular range of sportscars makes perfect sense (exactly what McLaren are doing) and has the potential to result in a competitive and profitable Lotus.
Good luck to them.
Thats the future for a company like Lotus, keep it simple, keep it cheapish and most important build in a life for your models away from the niche of the super rich or track day enthusiast.
Bahar was a Ferrari man and didn't see any other way but he also forgot that the groundwork at ferrari had been laid in the 50s in aiming them at the ulra rich. Lotus have been a middle class market company. They need to aim there again with a new business plan.
JonRB said:
British Beef said:
I actually think in this light a £50k Exige is a bargain, and if it makes Lotus good return on each unit sold, then bloody good for lotus!!!
Exactly so. I think, given its performance and peers, £50k-odd is about right. The £35k Mikeyboy is advocating would be a steal.
This yr to date, Lotus have sold 79 cars in the UK (SMMT figures released recently), 60% down on this time last yr. Only Daihatsu sold less cars (none) and onld Saab had a bigger drop in sales (95%) over the same period in 2011.
Clearly part of this will be influenced by Dany Bahahahar's madness, but I am of the mind that Lotus have pushed their pricing up market, but not the product themselves and as a result have shot themselves in the foot a little.
I'm all for Lotus bringing out a more special, higher priced "halo" car, to enhance the brand, but trying to push the market on price alone doesn't look like the best strategy.
With the departure of TVR and Noble moving waaay up the £ scale, Lotus could have really capitalised on a gap in the market. Unfortunately, it looks like Dany has done to Norfolk, what Nikolai has done for Blackpool.
I hope to heaven that with the tumour removed the patient can survive because we really, really need Lotus in the automotive landscape. We need the lightweight fun, modestly powerful, affordable cars that they're famous for and once they get that back on track, the more expensive stuff can follow.
356Speedster said:
I'm not so sure that £50K for an Exige (rising for an Evora of course) is such a good deal. The price of Lotus cars seems to have gone up a lot in recent yrs, outside of any major developents.
This yr to date, Lotus have sold 79 cars in the UK (SMMT figures released recently), 60% down on this time last yr. Only Daihatsu sold less cars (none) and onld Saab had a bigger drop in sales (95%) over the same period in 2011.
Clearly part of this will be influenced by Dany Bahahahar's madness, but I am of the mind that Lotus have pushed their pricing up market, but not the product themselves and as a result have shot themselves in the foot a little.
I'm all for Lotus bringing out a more special, higher priced "halo" car, to enhance the brand, but trying to push the market on price alone doesn't look like the best strategy.
With the departure of TVR and Noble moving waaay up the £ scale, Lotus could have really capitalised on a gap in the market. Unfortunately, it looks like Dany has done to Norfolk, what Nikolai has done for Blackpool.
I hope to heaven that with the tumour removed the patient can survive because we really, really need Lotus in the automotive landscape. We need the lightweight fun, modestly powerful, affordable cars that they're famous for and once they get that back on track, the more expensive stuff can follow.
absolutely agree, this was what I was trying to say but with much more clarity on your part.This yr to date, Lotus have sold 79 cars in the UK (SMMT figures released recently), 60% down on this time last yr. Only Daihatsu sold less cars (none) and onld Saab had a bigger drop in sales (95%) over the same period in 2011.
Clearly part of this will be influenced by Dany Bahahahar's madness, but I am of the mind that Lotus have pushed their pricing up market, but not the product themselves and as a result have shot themselves in the foot a little.
I'm all for Lotus bringing out a more special, higher priced "halo" car, to enhance the brand, but trying to push the market on price alone doesn't look like the best strategy.
With the departure of TVR and Noble moving waaay up the £ scale, Lotus could have really capitalised on a gap in the market. Unfortunately, it looks like Dany has done to Norfolk, what Nikolai has done for Blackpool.
I hope to heaven that with the tumour removed the patient can survive because we really, really need Lotus in the automotive landscape. We need the lightweight fun, modestly powerful, affordable cars that they're famous for and once they get that back on track, the more expensive stuff can follow.
356Speedster said:
I'm not so sure that £50K for an Exige (rising for an Evora of course) is such a good deal. The price of Lotus cars seems to have gone up a lot in recent yrs, outside of any major developents.
This yr to date, Lotus have sold 79 cars in the UK (SMMT figures released recently), 60% down on this time last yr. Only Daihatsu sold less cars (none) and onld Saab had a bigger drop in sales (95%) over the same period in 2011.
Clearly part of this will be influenced by Dany Bahahahar's madness, but I am of the mind that Lotus have pushed their pricing up market, but not the product themselves and as a result have shot themselves in the foot a little.
I'm all for Lotus bringing out a more special, higher priced "halo" car, to enhance the brand, but trying to push the market on price alone doesn't look like the best strategy.
With the departure of TVR and Noble moving waaay up the £ scale, Lotus could have really capitalised on a gap in the market. Unfortunately, it looks like Dany has done to Norfolk, what Nikolai has done for Blackpool.
I hope to heaven that with the tumour removed the patient can survive because we really, really need Lotus in the automotive landscape. We need the lightweight fun, modestly powerful, affordable cars that they're famous for and once they get that back on track, the more expensive stuff can follow.
Sounds like the perfect time for Lotus and Caterham to merge. What a strange twist of fate that would be...This yr to date, Lotus have sold 79 cars in the UK (SMMT figures released recently), 60% down on this time last yr. Only Daihatsu sold less cars (none) and onld Saab had a bigger drop in sales (95%) over the same period in 2011.
Clearly part of this will be influenced by Dany Bahahahar's madness, but I am of the mind that Lotus have pushed their pricing up market, but not the product themselves and as a result have shot themselves in the foot a little.
I'm all for Lotus bringing out a more special, higher priced "halo" car, to enhance the brand, but trying to push the market on price alone doesn't look like the best strategy.
With the departure of TVR and Noble moving waaay up the £ scale, Lotus could have really capitalised on a gap in the market. Unfortunately, it looks like Dany has done to Norfolk, what Nikolai has done for Blackpool.
I hope to heaven that with the tumour removed the patient can survive because we really, really need Lotus in the automotive landscape. We need the lightweight fun, modestly powerful, affordable cars that they're famous for and once they get that back on track, the more expensive stuff can follow.
marshalla said:
Now that would be interesting - Caterham for the low priced fun cars, Lotus for the more expensive end of the market ?
Definitely an option. And they could also rebrand the Caterham's back to their roots as Lotuses (Loti?)... Either way, Lotus survives and gets back to doing what it does best as well as offering options to go up market.subirg said:
Definitely an option. And they could also rebrand the Caterham's back to their roots as Lotuses (Loti?)... Either way, Lotus survives and gets back to doing what it does best as well as offering options to go up market.
Would rebranding Caterham be a good thing? In car circles I think Caterham is a strong brand in its own right and it would be a shame to see it be subsumed by Lotus. Also, given all the crap that Fernandes got from Lotus that caused him to buy Caterham, I can't see him being anything other than obstructive.
356Speedster said:
Clearly part of this will be influenced by Dany Bahahahar's madness, but I am of the mind that Lotus have pushed their pricing up market, but not the product themselves and as a result have shot themselves in the foot a little.
beautifully put, and low sales volumes confirms it
The problem isn't that Lotus have pushed their prices up, but more that their competitors have pushed them down. The Elise costs about the same in real terms now as it did when it was first released; however more mainstream competitors like Porsche have managed to improve their economies of scale in a way that Lotus just can't compete with.
I'm not convinced it's possible to produce cheap(ish) low-volume cars any more.
I'm not convinced it's possible to produce cheap(ish) low-volume cars any more.
Its more likely that Lotus will be taken over by a larger brand, to be able to absorb its short to medium term losses until a model line up is established that will allow it to flourish. Caterham simply don't have that sort fo money under Fernandes.
Of the world brands that I tink might take some inetrest in the company if it is sold (and I don't think its going to be just yet) would be JLR. Who have no lower priced "entry level" brand in their inventory which would lead nicely into their Jag buyers in later years.
Of the world brands that I tink might take some inetrest in the company if it is sold (and I don't think its going to be just yet) would be JLR. Who have no lower priced "entry level" brand in their inventory which would lead nicely into their Jag buyers in later years.
356Speedster said:
JonRB said:
British Beef said:
I actually think in this light a £50k Exige is a bargain, and if it makes Lotus good return on each unit sold, then bloody good for lotus!!!
Exactly so. I think, given its performance and peers, £50k-odd is about right. The £35k Mikeyboy is advocating would be a steal.
This yr to date, Lotus have sold 79 cars in the UK (SMMT figures released recently), 60% down on this time last yr. Only Daihatsu sold less cars (none) and onld Saab had a bigger drop in sales (95%) over the same period in 2011.
Clearly part of this will be influenced by Dany Bahahahar's madness, but I am of the mind that Lotus have pushed their pricing up market, but not the product themselves and as a result have shot themselves in the foot a little.
I'm all for Lotus bringing out a more special, higher priced "halo" car, to enhance the brand, but trying to push the market on price alone doesn't look like the best strategy.
With the departure of TVR and Noble moving waaay up the £ scale, Lotus could have really capitalised on a gap in the market. Unfortunately, it looks like Dany has done to Norfolk, what Nikolai has done for Blackpool.
I hope to heaven that with the tumour removed the patient can survive because we really, really need Lotus in the automotive landscape. We need the lightweight fun, modestly powerful, affordable cars that they're famous for and once they get that back on track, the more expensive stuff can follow.
It puts them head to head with Caymen or used 911.
How many people will opt for a Hardcore(ish) Lotus as opposed to a Porsche?
Porsche has a reputation for building quality, usable cars and good dealer service.
Lotus just doesn't.
The Bahar plan was always going to be an uphill battle becuse of this.
odyssey2200 said:
£50K for a lotus is going to be difficult for them.
It puts them head to head with Caymen or used 911.
How many people will opt for a Hardcore(ish) Lotus as opposed to a Porsche?
That depends what they actually want. It's stating the obvious, but while a Cayman or 911 is much better at being a Porsche than a Lotus is, it's not as good at being a Lotus. I would not rather have a 911 than an Elise, for instance, even if they were the same price. It puts them head to head with Caymen or used 911.
How many people will opt for a Hardcore(ish) Lotus as opposed to a Porsche?
356Speedster said:
I hope to heaven that with the tumour removed the patient can survive because we really, really need Lotus in the automotive landscape. We need the lightweight fun, modestly powerful, affordable cars that they're famous for and once they get that back on track, the more expensive stuff can follow.
I wish I could agree with you.Lotus are famed amongst the cognoscenti for their lightweight, affordable cars, but simply don’t register on the public’s consciousness. In order to attract anything other than the trackday crowd, they have to offer a really good USP, and at present they don’t do that. TVR’s selling point was monster performance at a bargain price, but Lotus - lightweight performance at a bargain price - are too expensive now, and the performance the Elise offers is massively outclassed by the hotter versions of standard hatchbacks. Added to this, the Lotus build quality hasn’t been good enough for years, and whilst it's stood still the rest of the has moved on.
In short, their products, at least at the lower end, are outclassed in all but a few areas. If they could make money by doing cheaper, lighter cars, I’m sure they would have, but it’s my understanding that they reviewed this option thoroughly and concluded that the volumes they’d need to sell to be able to make money this way were simply not possible. Hence the 5 new models and the plan to move upmarket.
Right now, Lotus are a basket case. Their engineering arm is justifiably famous, but the road car division is very nearly dead – this is a car company which is producing almost no cars. And unless something is done very soon, the nearly dead company will become the really dead company. Even now, there is absolutely no hope of recovering the money pumped into it, and the new owners will not be swayed by the sentimentality that we all feel for this iconic company. They need to make a profit – why else would they be in business? – and once they realise that they’ll never get any form of sensible return, they’ll pull the plug. OK, they might be able to sell it to someone, but we all saw what happened to Saab; the only way Lotus will survive is if a big manufacturer buys them and decides, purely as a vanity project, a la Bugatti, to spend massively. The difficulty is that Bugatti were always the ultimate car, the one to which all others aspired. Even then, Piech’s investment was driven entirely by the desire to produce a cost-no-object ultimate car and supported by the huge profits generated elsewhere in the VAG group.
I can’t see a future for Lotus, sadly.
kambites said:
The problem isn't that Lotus have pushed their prices up, but more that their competitors have pushed them down. The Elise costs about the same in real terms now as it did when it was first released; however more mainstream competitors like Porsche have managed to improve their economies of scale in a way that Lotus just can't compete with.
I'm not convinced it's possible to produce cheap(ish) low-volume cars any more.
I'm not so sure.... a base Boxster is £37.5K, Cayman £39K, then Elise CR is £27K, Exige £49K and Evora £51K. Just using Porsche as the example, their pricing hasn't come down and squeezed Lotus (unless I've missed something).I'm not convinced it's possible to produce cheap(ish) low-volume cars any more.
In terms of competition, I'd say the Evora is a rival to the Cayman (and therefore, it looks a bit overpriced at £12K basic more expensive), but the Elise & Exige are too raw & focussed to rival the Boxster or Cayman.
In some respects it feels like Lotus has forgotten where the Elise & Exige fit into the car world as alternatives to cars like Caterhams, TVRs (juuust), Ariel, etc. Bascially properly fun hoon cars to put it bluntly. The happy hunting ground here is £20-£40K, IMO... anything north of that gives people too much choice and should only be reserved for properly range topping cars (e.g. Caterham R500).
I'd suggest that the Elise isn't a million miles away from it's ideal market price point. I'd say a CR should be around £23-24K (to tempt first time Lotus buyers away from Caterhams & the like), rising to mid £30s for the top models. The Exige I feel is massively overprices at £49K and is about £14K out of it's depth. Priced more realistically, I'd expect a more boyant core market for them that would allow diversity elsewhere later on.
These are my opinions on what the market (& punters) can bare for these current Lotus products and clearly, I don't know what they cost to build, however, if they can't make a unit profit on the Elise / Exige with their quite old platforms, then the business has deeper problems! (I suspect this is the case).
longblackcoat said:
Lotus are famed amongst the cognoscenti for their lightweight, affordable cars, but simply don’t register on the public’s consciousness.
I don't agree. About 10 years ago, just after I got married, I bought my new wife a Lotus Elan SE Turbo for a wedding present for something like £8k, and I myself already had a £22k TVR Chimaera. All my wife's friends had up until that point criticised us spending "as much as a conservatory" on a convertible. Or had heard the s
te about TVRs being unreliable or thought it was an MG or simply didn't care. However, once she had the Elan it was "ooooh! You have a LOTUS!!!!" and "Oh wow! That must have been so expensive!" or "I wish my hubby would buy *me* a Lotus!"
Don't underestimate the cachet that the Lotus brand still has.
Edit: Mind you, I guess that was 10 years ago.
Edited by JonRB on Friday 8th June 15:11
JonRB said:
longblackcoat said:
Lotus are famed amongst the cognoscenti for their lightweight, affordable cars, but simply don’t register on the public’s consciousness.
I don't agree. About 9 years ago, just after I got married, I bought my new wife a Lotus Elan SE Turbo for a wedding present for something like £8k, and I myself already had a £22k TVR Chimaera. All my wife's friends had up until that point criticised us spending "as much as a conservatory" on a convertible. Or had heard the ste about TVRs being unreliable or thought it was an MG or simply didn't care. However, once she had the Elan it was "ooooh! You have a LOTUS!!!!" and "Oh wow! That must have been so expensive!" or "I wish my hubby would by *me* a Lotus!"
Don't underestimate the cachet that the Lotus brand still has.
EDIT: Crossover with JonRB, who edited his entry at the same time as I hit the 'send' button!
Edited by longblackcoat on Friday 8th June 15:14
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff