RE: PH Blog: shifting expectations

[Cheib]

I wouldn't pretend to know anything about this but presumably it does have something to do with the power characteristics of the engine and specifically the torque out put as others have speculated ?

It'll be very interesting to see how sort after these cars are as future classics...it's one thing having a big bill for changing your fuel bags but imagine the electrics going wrong on these cars and dealing with that out of warranty if ten year's time.

[The Pits]

George H said:

How does making a car less involving ruin it?

Automated manual gearboxes with paddleshift make it far, far more desirable for me than a manual gearbox.

Bully for you. You win. Screw everyone who likes something else. The manual is history. So is this discussion.

[George H]

900T-R said:

Because unless you're a racing driver, sports cars are all about involvement? If it's just about going from A-B as quickly as possible, there are more efficient options (but none remotely as interesting as an experience)...

That's down to personal preference. I can have just as much fun driving down a twisty back road in a paddleshift car than I can in a manual one. The TT2 gearbox in my car is an automatic with manual override which is pretty slow to change gear, still great fun to use. Plus when I get stuck in traffic etc I can just press D and leave it in auto for an easy drive. Best of both worlds imo.

[Bash Brannigan]

TheRoadWarrior said:

Bash Brannigan said:

If the SLS GT has an improved shift does this mean that they've sorted the source of failure, and so can presumably retrofit the solution, or that they've decided that it doesn't need to pass their reliability tests?

They wont have revised down the acceptable life of the component(Gearbox) unless it's a limited volume run, so if the shift is better and this isn't a special edition I would expect they've found some way around the original concern- either tuning or a hardware modification.

It'd be interesting to know if they indexed the reliability tests to anticipated use or whether all cars got the same battering. I would have thought that the former would true, in which case they may have decided that the GT would get used less and so not need to conform to the same norms. Just guessing on all this obviously so any insight from someone in the industry would be really interesting!

[George H]

The Pits said:

Screw everyone who likes something else.

How ironic since that's exactly what you sound like when whining on about how great manual gearboxes are

[kambites]

George H said:

The Pits said:

Bully for you. You win. Screw everyone who likes something else. The manual is history. So is this discussion.

Ironic since that's exactly what you sound like when whining on about how great manual gearboxes are

I suppose the difference is, fans of automatics aren't finding their choice getting smaller and smaller with every new generation of cars. Not that that particularly bothers me, I don't like new sports cars for a whole load of other reasons, too. I'm happy sticking with older cars.

[anonymous-user]

It's worth remembering that it's the rotational inertia of the drivetrain upstream of the gearbox input shaft that is the real limiting factor in the shift speed (both up and down). The Fezza almost certainly has significantly less rotating inertia in the engine, so it can shift in less time for the same given load. (inertia becomes force, as rotational velocity changes, because "inertia is a measure of an objects amount of resistance to change in that objects velocity").

On an upshift, when the engine must be decelerated, the force required to do this is absorbed into the transmission clutch packs (and to some degree into the cars mass, depending on how much "shuffle" the engineers are happy to be transmitted to the chassis).

On a downshift, the engine must provide the extra torque to accelerate itself to the new higher speed.

[kambites]

Yes, it would be interesting to know the difference in rotational inertia.

[lockup]

George H said:

How ironic since that's exactly what you sound like when whining on about how great manual gearboxes are

Stop using your husband's computer, get back in the kitchen and make him some pie!

[thewheelman]

kambites said:

George H said:

The Pits said:

Bully for you. You win. Screw everyone who likes something else. The manual is history. So is this discussion.

Ironic since that's exactly what you sound like when whining on about how great manual gearboxes are

I suppose the difference is, fans of automatics aren't finding their choice getting smaller and smaller with every new generation of cars. Not that that particularly bothers me, I don't like new sports cars for a whole load of other reasons, too. I'm happy sticking with older cars.

100% with you there, older cars win for me

[FlossyThePig]

jimbobsimmonds said:

George H said:

How does making a car less involving ruin it?

Automated manual gearboxes with paddleshift make it far, far more desirable for me than a manual gearbox.

You can't make a Fast and the Furious film with paddleshifts can you?

Why not? Good film directors can create drama in different ways. Lack of imagination makes waggling a gearlever a dramatic stereotype.

[George H]

lockup said:

Stop using your husband's computer, get back in the kitchen and make him some pie!

[356Speedster]

thewheelman said:

kambites said:

George H said:

The Pits said:

Bully for you. You win. Screw everyone who likes something else. The manual is history. So is this discussion.

Ironic since that's exactly what you sound like when whining on about how great manual gearboxes are

I suppose the difference is, fans of automatics aren't finding their choice getting smaller and smaller with every new generation of cars. Not that that particularly bothers me, I don't like new sports cars for a whole load of other reasons, too. I'm happy sticking with older cars.

100% with you there, older cars win for me

I'm a 3-pedal person too. I do find it very sad that genuine sports / supercars are more & more being offered in paddleshift only, as in my view, it takes something away from the experience and interaction with a car. I don't have a problem with autos per-se (and have owned them), but I'd still like to have the choice on performance cars, but more and more it seems like that's being taken away from us.

And it's not just Joe Public that's putting the boot in, manufacturers are able to get better emissions by tweaking their gearbox software to pass EU tests these days, to that's also hurting the good old manual

As for this article, I loved it! It's great to see a real techy piece by Harries Can we have some more please!

[mrclav]

George H said:

lockup said:

Stop using your husband's computer, get back in the kitchen and make him some pie!

I think the insinuation is that only 'real men' drive manual cars as opposed to autos/flappy paddles being for women? Therefore your comments are not those of a man but of a woman...

I happily stand to be corrected though!

[365daytonafan]

FlossyThePig said:

jimbobsimmonds said:

George H said:

How does making a car less involving ruin it?

Automated manual gearboxes with paddleshift make it far, far more desirable for me than a manual gearbox.

You can't make a Fast and the Furious film with paddleshifts can you?

Why not? Good film directors can create drama in different ways. Lack of imagination makes waggling a gearlever a dramatic stereotype.

Transporter 2 has a scene where The Stath is driving the e-gear equipped Lamborghini Murcielago roadster. Makes a point of showing him shift with the paddles. Looks good on screen.

[Tahiti]

Interesting read thanks Chris.

[logos]

CH are you subtly implying that California and 458 gearboxes aren't reliable on the basis of some posts on some fora? It could be kinda weak... (it's still an interesting article, though!)

What about these data:
California 1630kg 505nm
458 1485kg 540nm
SLS 1620kg 650nm

I think the combination of SLS higher torque and weight stresses a lot more the gearbox. Hence the more conservative tuning.


Edit: I came late.

Edited by logos on Monday 11th June 14:39

[JTRacelogic]

I have just changed from a manual 360 to a 458, and beforehand I would have sworn that the click clack of the metal gear lever was one of the great joys of driving the car which cannot be replaced. However, the gearbox in the 458 is so sublime, and so rewarding that it even surpasses the joy of working the manual box. I never thought I would say that, but the double clutch gearbox has now become the more enjoyable option for me.

I also recently went from an H-pattern box in my FunCup car to a sequential, and the car is now an order of magnitude more fun to drive for all the same reasons. It's like driving a mini Touring Car, I still can't believe just how much fun it is, it literally makes me laugh out loud every time I drive it from the sheer thrill of changing gear so quickly with your foot totally planted. The acceleration is seamless, so the car remains balanced, you can shift gear whilst on the limit around a bend. When I get back into a manual car have to work a gear lever, I now find it awkward, slow and detracts from the pure joy of driving a car on the limit.

For me, I seriously don't think I will look backwards on manual boxes with any form of nostalgia, in the same way as I don't miss the manual choke. A better, but most importantly, more enjoyable solution has emerged.

[suffolk009]

I prefer a manual gearbox, with a clutch, and a gear-stick.

I'm a dinosaur.

[greggy50]

suffolk009 said:

I prefer a manual gearbox, with a clutch, and a gear-stick.

I'm a dinosaur.

+1 Even at 20 remember when I was 16 drove a Ferrari 550 on track with paddles and just looked done and wished it had the metal gate and a gear stick instead...