RE: PH Blog: shifting expectations
Discussion
jimbobsimmonds said:
You can't make a Fast and the Furious film with paddleshifts can you?
also, my only experience of paddle shifting is with a Fabia VRS and, although not in the same league as the above, it was not a positive one. I couldn't put my finger on what I didn't like abput it, partly because it wouldn't go down when I wanted it too coming up to a roundabout (not far off, half a second maybe, but still...). All I know is the salesman for Skoda was a real petrolhead, to the extent he slagged off his product; I explained that the VRS wasn't powerful enough for what I wanted and my problem with the gearchanges and that the brakes were a bit s
t when pressing on and he off the record agreed. Tried to sell me his mates Focus ST instead 
haha, wouldnt let you change down due to the fact you would probably have damaged the engine had you downchanged at that time... that half a second gave you enough tolerance. The real petrolhead skoda salesman drove a rover 25 and when I bought my VRS from him could say nothing but great things.. he's a salesman, its his job to say what the customer wants him to say.also, my only experience of paddle shifting is with a Fabia VRS and, although not in the same league as the above, it was not a positive one. I couldn't put my finger on what I didn't like abput it, partly because it wouldn't go down when I wanted it too coming up to a roundabout (not far off, half a second maybe, but still...). All I know is the salesman for Skoda was a real petrolhead, to the extent he slagged off his product; I explained that the VRS wasn't powerful enough for what I wanted and my problem with the gearchanges and that the brakes were a bit s
t when pressing on and he off the record agreed. Tried to sell me his mates Focus ST instead As it wasnt powerful enough, funny how you couldnt keep up with me when I first got it
Is there a strange techno issue here related to your first experience. So I had a very early smartphone and it was a complete shambles - so I say how lousy they all are and would NEVER have one, despite happily playing angry birds on the other halves excellent I-phone 4
My first experience with flappy paddle was an Alfa 147 - so they are ALL lousy and not proper at all!
My first experience with flappy paddle was an Alfa 147 - so they are ALL lousy and not proper at all!
JTRacelogic said:
"..... the gearbox in the 458 is so sublime, and so rewarding that it even surpasses the joy of working the manual box. I never thought I would say that....."
I don’t want to get into an argument about which gearbox is better, DCT or manual, as this to me is just a personal preference, however can you explain how pulling a lever (which has a digital link to the gearbox) can be rewarding? I have never driven a 458 so I'm not trying to be vexatious. It is just something I can’t imagine.Interesting article.
As for the manual v paddle debate. Well yes there is something satisfying about heel and toe and that click clack as you slot it into gear but paddle shifts do not remove the fun just add to it in a different way. Can be quicker, perfect rev match, great fun on track.
As for the manual v paddle debate. Well yes there is something satisfying about heel and toe and that click clack as you slot it into gear but paddle shifts do not remove the fun just add to it in a different way. Can be quicker, perfect rev match, great fun on track.
JTRacelogic said:
I have just changed from a manual 360 to a 458, and beforehand I would have sworn that the click clack of the metal gear lever was one of the great joys of driving the car which cannot be replaced.
I also have a manual 360. For me, it's not so much the click clack but the pleasure of heel & toe downshifts that I would miss. I should just point out that my experience of paddle shift it limitied to 360 F1, AM V8V & MP4 12C & only about half an hour in each of these but I'm sure I would miss my manual box if I changed cars. Maybe I'll have to go back to Porsche next time I'm shopping for a newer car - it's pleasing to see they still offer manuals, although a shame they've brought in some new tech to mess up the steering.Munich said:
I don’t want to get into an argument about which gearbox is better, DCT or manual, as this to me is just a personal preference, however can you explain how pulling a lever (which has a digital link to the gearbox) can be rewarding? I have never driven a 458 so I'm not trying to be vexatious. It is just something I can’t imagine.
Personally, I love nothing better than wringing the very last drop of performance out of a car. I feel that the very best manual gearboxes were the ones which swapped cogs very quickly, with very little interruption of power (eg. Peugeot 205 GTi, Ford Puma).I find a straight cut racing gearbox, which changes really quickly, way more exciting than a slow cumbersome road 'box with synchromesh. Add a full-throttle shift into the equation and the extra kick between gears brings even more performance (and enjoyment!).
A really fast dual clutch auto (eg. Nissan GTR or 458) is simply the zenith of these concepts, giving the fastest gear-change possible, with a nice engine kick between gears. Also, the instant change in engine note sounds just like an F1 car, and the acceleration is unbroken, which is especially useful if you are overtaking...!
I find I can also maximise the braking capability in an auto setup, because no matter how hard I try, it is very difficult (it turns out even for Pros) to heel and toe whilst maintaining a steady pressure on the brake pedal, so I invariably lose a few metres as I go down the 'box.
I can then concentrate on balancing the car on the very limit with brakes, steering and throttle, which I find way more rewarding, difficult and exciting than fighting a inefficient mechanical linkage between the engine and wheels.
Just my opinion!
M3csl lasted about 6 months due to the gearbox, good on a road you don't know (& helped me learn the ring fully) but after that it just left me.......bored.
Got a megane r26.r after that & even with much less power, wrong wheel drive etc it was brilliant. I put it down to the manual gear change.
I've driven a huge amount of ring laps in my friends Nissan gtr but it really bowed up how much I missed the manual change.
So for a track car, I'd definatly go manual.
Got a megane r26.r after that & even with much less power, wrong wheel drive etc it was brilliant. I put it down to the manual gear change.
I've driven a huge amount of ring laps in my friends Nissan gtr but it really bowed up how much I missed the manual change.
So for a track car, I'd definatly go manual.
TheRoadWarrior said:
It's interesting that the same box performs so differently in 2 vehicles but it's a good example of the automotive industry approach and also evidence of the difference calibration and tuning can make to the experience of driving a car.
There's loads of examples where different manufacturers(Or even within one company) use effectively the same hardware yet the actual experience of using the respective products is almost the polar opposite from each other.
Just goes to show how important the details are, people often think that you have to change lots of components or uprate things massively to change the feel of a car, often thats just not the case
+1 nice commentThere's loads of examples where different manufacturers(Or even within one company) use effectively the same hardware yet the actual experience of using the respective products is almost the polar opposite from each other.
Just goes to show how important the details are, people often think that you have to change lots of components or uprate things massively to change the feel of a car, often thats just not the case
i never really realised the important that details make.......amazing same gearbox yet behave differently in their shift quality (performance v reliability the age old tradeoff)
The Pits said:
Trouble is with flappy paddles is, just like other high tech devices, computers or phones or camers, they go out of date so quickly. All this just so douchebags who can't change gear can pose in London? What a shame, supercars are being ruined and the infinitely more involving manual gearbox is all but over.
I think all these supercars or sports cars when new and in vogue such as F355, F360M, F430, E46 M3 CS, E92 M3.......they are very popular in F1 Paddleshift, SMGII, DCT etc but in years to come the Manual Gearbox is the more sought after option.....though the paddleshift is fun but expensive when goes wrong......mrclav said:
George H said:
lockup said:
Stop using your husband's computer, get back in the kitchen and make him some pie!
I happily stand to be corrected though!
If you can trust the engine note to video sync on that video the SLS is much slower shifting than my GTI DSG daily driver.
Clearly ferrari are working on the basis that building up a stock of recon gearboxes and being very fair on the owners who do experience trouble is worth the hype the cars get.
Clearly ferrari are working on the basis that building up a stock of recon gearboxes and being very fair on the owners who do experience trouble is worth the hype the cars get.
Max_Torque said:
It's worth remembering that it's the rotational inertia of the drivetrain upstream of the gearbox input shaft that is the real limiting factor in the shift speed (both up and down). The Fezza almost certainly has significantly less rotating inertia in the engine, so it can shift in less time for the same given load. (inertia becomes force, as rotational velocity changes, because "inertia is a measure of an objects amount of resistance to change in that objects velocity").
On an upshift, when the engine must be decelerated, the force required to do this is absorbed into the transmission clutch packs (and to some degree into the cars mass, depending on how much "shuffle" the engineers are happy to be transmitted to the chassis).
On a downshift, the engine must provide the extra torque to accelerate itself to the new higher speed.
On an upshift, when the engine must be decelerated, the force required to do this is absorbed into the transmission clutch packs (and to some degree into the cars mass, depending on how much "shuffle" the engineers are happy to be transmitted to the chassis).
On a downshift, the engine must provide the extra torque to accelerate itself to the new higher speed.
Quality post, thank you.Clarkson never bought up the difference in changes between two cars using the same transmission did he? Just one of those things that TG could have informed of us and makes it seem more like an entertainment show with nice images and sounds.
Epic lap. I was playing it in the background for the V8 tunes while reading through the thread. Maylander could have lent Monkey an SLS friendly HANS to make it easier?
I was lucky enough to test drive an SLS yesterday and oddly enough the only fault I could pick was a slightly hesitant change when in comfort setting(not as noticable in sport).This is a absolutely stunning motorcar and everyone should try one.
If that ferrari version is more fragile then picture the cost a few years down the line
If that ferrari version is more fragile then picture the cost a few years down the line
JTRacelogic said:
I have just changed from a manual 360 to a 458, and beforehand I would have sworn that the click clack of the metal gear lever was one of the great joys of driving the car which cannot be replaced. However, the gearbox in the 458 is so sublime, and so rewarding that it even surpasses the joy of working the manual box. I never thought I would say that, but the double clutch gearbox has now become the more enjoyable option for me.
I also recently went from an H-pattern box in my FunCup car to a sequential, and the car is now an order of magnitude more fun to drive for all the same reasons. It's like driving a mini Touring Car, I still can't believe just how much fun it is, it literally makes me laugh out loud every time I drive it from the sheer thrill of changing gear so quickly with your foot totally planted. The acceleration is seamless, so the car remains balanced, you can shift gear whilst on the limit around a bend. When I get back into a manual car have to work a gear lever, I now find it awkward, slow and detracts from the pure joy of driving a car on the limit.
For me, I seriously don't think I will look backwards on manual boxes with any form of nostalgia, in the same way as I don't miss the manual choke. A better, but most importantly, more enjoyable solution has emerged.
I just drove a 458, expecting to hate the auto box, but it was truly amazing, so good you can forget about it and concentrate more on spanking her... This is a good thing. It worked perfectly, was so fast changing, a genuine advance in technology.I also recently went from an H-pattern box in my FunCup car to a sequential, and the car is now an order of magnitude more fun to drive for all the same reasons. It's like driving a mini Touring Car, I still can't believe just how much fun it is, it literally makes me laugh out loud every time I drive it from the sheer thrill of changing gear so quickly with your foot totally planted. The acceleration is seamless, so the car remains balanced, you can shift gear whilst on the limit around a bend. When I get back into a manual car have to work a gear lever, I now find it awkward, slow and detracts from the pure joy of driving a car on the limit.
For me, I seriously don't think I will look backwards on manual boxes with any form of nostalgia, in the same way as I don't miss the manual choke. A better, but most importantly, more enjoyable solution has emerged.
However, to buy and run the thing, stories of the boxes not liking too much time in traffic, eventually going wrong at massive expense, the fact that the whole motion of the car is entrusted to a series of electronic systems, means that for me, a Manual car is still the better option for long term/ second hand ownership and real world use.
Worth pointing out that these gearboxes are in two vastly different applications. One as a transaxle connected to a lower revving, cross plane crank V8 via a carbon driveshaft and torque tube assembly, the other bolted directly to the back of a flat plane V8 with a stratospheric red line.
I'd be more inclined to think that the revs and torsionals of the 458's engine are what's causing issues, not just the calibration.
I'd be more inclined to think that the revs and torsionals of the 458's engine are what's causing issues, not just the calibration.
You can clearly sense and see the lag in that video Chris posted. Pay attention to the downshifts, I can clearly see why Chris is complaining about the lag. But I think I'll understand the different approaches by different companies after visited both in Stuttgart and in Maranello. Ferrari is small little village against big and mighty city of Mercedes, what I try to explain is that people buy Ferrari with different intentions of the vehicles. Ferrari has the rights to broke down once in a while if it delivers the 100% passion it promised when it works. Mercedes doesn't.
BettySwollocks2 said:
haha, wouldnt let you change down due to the fact you would probably have damaged the engine had you downchanged at that time... that half a second gave you enough tolerance. The real petrolhead skoda salesman drove a rover 25 and when I bought my VRS from him could say nothing but great things.. he's a salesman, its his job to say what the customer wants him to say.
As it wasnt powerful enough, funny how you couldnt keep up with me when I first got it
Tw@ As it wasnt powerful enough, funny how you couldnt keep up with me when I first got it
Wearing Army boots made full throttle kinda tricky
Power never lies!He said great things to you because he sensed "mug"....
George H said:
The Pits said:
What a shame, supercars are being ruined and the infinitely more involving manual gearbox is all but over.
How does making a car less involving ruin it? 
So a fully automated car is fun ?
On that basis you must get your kicks being chauffeur driven.
Edited by redgriff500 on Tuesday 12th June 11:46
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