RE: Driven: Audi RS4
Discussion
Scuffers said:
Agreed, seems to be epidemic in jurnos these days....
If you want to spend all day going sideways, buy a caterham.
Big heavy road cars do not make great trackday cars, no amount of tyre shredding videos is going to change that.
I have an S4 and S5 as road cars, if I want to go flying round a track, I use an Elise.
Eg.
In a 1011 word review, the description of that behaviour consumed a massive 9 words. It was also qualified. Read into that what you will. If you want to spend all day going sideways, buy a caterham.
Big heavy road cars do not make great trackday cars, no amount of tyre shredding videos is going to change that.
I have an S4 and S5 as road cars, if I want to go flying round a track, I use an Elise.
Eg.
I like cars whose front axles don't want to plough straight on after the clipping point of a corner. Either on road or track.The easiet representation of that in a mag/video is oversteer.
Oversteer plays no part in any objective verdict on a car, but it engages a larger audience. Not having horrible understeer does have a part in an objective review.
The new RS4 should be praised for not being another fast Audi hampered by the latter.
Scuffers said:
Agreed, seems to be epidemic in jurnos these days....
If you want to spend all day going sideways, buy a caterham.
Big heavy road cars do not make great trackday cars, no amount of tyre shredding videos is going to change that.
I have an S4 and S5 as road cars, if I want to go flying round a track, I use an Elise.
Eg.
In a 1011 word review, the description of that behaviour consumed a massive 9 words. It was also qualified. Read into that what you will. If you want to spend all day going sideways, buy a caterham.
Big heavy road cars do not make great trackday cars, no amount of tyre shredding videos is going to change that.
I have an S4 and S5 as road cars, if I want to go flying round a track, I use an Elise.
Eg.
I like cars whose front axles don't want to plough straight on after the clipping point of a corner. Either on road or track.The easiet representation of that in a mag/video is oversteer.
Oversteer plays no part in any objective verdict on a car, but it engages a larger audience. Not having horrible understeer does have a part in an objective review.
The new RS4 should be praised for not being another fast Audi hampered by the latter.
Scuffers said:
Agreed, seems to be epidemic in jurnos these days....
If you want to spend all day going sideways, buy a caterham.
Big heavy road cars do not make great trackday cars, no amount of tyre shredding videos is going to change that.
I have an S4 and S5 as road cars, if I want to go flying round a track, I use an Elise.
Eg.
In a 1011 word review, the description of that behaviour consumed a massive 9 words. It was also qualified. Read into that what you will. If you want to spend all day going sideways, buy a caterham.
Big heavy road cars do not make great trackday cars, no amount of tyre shredding videos is going to change that.
I have an S4 and S5 as road cars, if I want to go flying round a track, I use an Elise.
Eg.
I like cars whose front axles don't want to plough straight on after the clipping point of a corner. Either on road or track.The easiet representation of that in a mag/video is oversteer.
Oversteer plays no part in any objective verdict on a car, but it engages a larger audience. Not having horrible understeer does have a part in an objective review.
The new RS4 should be praised for not being another fast Audi hampered by the latter.
Blown2CV said:
what is harris's continual obsession with drifting? He may live in the world of "power tests" international travel and wraparound oakley shades, but the only people trying to drive an Audi RSx like that on UK public roads are those smelling of council estate buying Cat-C second-hand in 7 years time. Surely this is more the thinking man's express. I have never had one of these fly up behind me in lane 3 of the mway - it's always the diesel Audi driver who wishes he could afford an RS.
Because a car you can control with the throttle or steering inputs is ordinary, a car that lets you control it with a mixture or the two simultaneously is a whole different experience.Its not just about 45* angles and black lines, the ability to adjust a car's 'attitude' at any point in a bend turns ordinary car into a great car. It's the bit that lets you to make the car dance to your tune and I enjoy it everyday without any need to create tyresmoke. Mostly.
Edited by Niffty951 on Friday 15th June 13:13
Will have to take laptop on holiday and find wifi hotspot now so as to read the article or stomach the data roaming charges on the iPhone
Chris whatever happened to your Autocar B7?
Chris whatever happened to your Autocar B7?
Chris Harris said:
Audi used to trot-out the 'rear-biased' line with every successive 4wd performance variant - the B7 RS4 was the same as the others. It always felt like the rear axle was there to assist in proceedings, not actively contribute to the overall feel and behaviour of the car. That's an important distinction.
In a B7 RS4, you delight in the un-Audi control weights, the un-Audi damping, and the powertrain. But its default chassis behaviour is understeer - regardless of what Audi claims the ff/r torque-split might be.
The new car has a different 4wd system which is a decelopment of the S4's chassis, and uses the Sport Differential at the rear axle. This is basically a fancy-pants locking diff that allows the car to behave much more like a RWD car from apex to exit than a B7. The rear axle will move, much like a GT-R. This is a new and welcome change from Audi.
As for torque - you have to rev the B8 very hard to make it move the way the badge suggests it should. As I said, some people will like that; others won't. Jump out of a C63 into an RS4 and it lacks the type of instant urge that makes for a great road car. There was no C63 when the B7 car was launched, but now there is, so we have to compare the two.
You'll see the results next week.
In a B7 RS4, you delight in the un-Audi control weights, the un-Audi damping, and the powertrain. But its default chassis behaviour is understeer - regardless of what Audi claims the ff/r torque-split might be.
The new car has a different 4wd system which is a decelopment of the S4's chassis, and uses the Sport Differential at the rear axle. This is basically a fancy-pants locking diff that allows the car to behave much more like a RWD car from apex to exit than a B7. The rear axle will move, much like a GT-R. This is a new and welcome change from Audi.
As for torque - you have to rev the B8 very hard to make it move the way the badge suggests it should. As I said, some people will like that; others won't. Jump out of a C63 into an RS4 and it lacks the type of instant urge that makes for a great road car. There was no C63 when the B7 car was launched, but now there is, so we have to compare the two.
You'll see the results next week.
Chris Harris said:
In a 1011 word review, the description of that behaviour consumed a massive 9 words. It was also qualified. Read into that what you will.
I like cars whose front axles don't want to plough straight on after the clipping point of a corner. Either on road or track.The easiet representation of that in a mag/video is oversteer.
Oversteer plays no part in any objective verdict on a car, but it engages a larger audience. Not having horrible understeer does have a part in an objective review.
The new RS4 should be praised for not being another fast Audi hampered by the latter.
Chris,I like cars whose front axles don't want to plough straight on after the clipping point of a corner. Either on road or track.The easiet representation of that in a mag/video is oversteer.
Oversteer plays no part in any objective verdict on a car, but it engages a larger audience. Not having horrible understeer does have a part in an objective review.
The new RS4 should be praised for not being another fast Audi hampered by the latter.
to a point, I agree with you, I hate cars that under steer probably just as much as you do, and in the past, the older Audi Quattro's would under steer at the slightest provocation, however, B7 on-wards, unless your running no-grip front tyres, you have to push way beyond anything remotely sensible to get them into terminal under steer.
Yes, I am sure you can get to this point on a track, but then given enough provocation, you can make just about anything under steer if you want to.
My gripe is that in 9 words, you seem to have fallen down the same stereotypical line as everybody else, even though you accept that it's really not that big a deal, and whilst it is only 9 words, you have to realise from this thread alone, that's what the reader takes away from your review.
Scuffers said:
Chris,
to a point, I agree with you, I hate cars that under steer probably just as much as you do, and in the past, the older Audi Quattro's would under steer at the slightest provocation, however, B7 on-wards, unless your running no-grip front tyres, you have to push way beyond anything remotely sensible to get them into terminal under steer.
Yes, I am sure you can get to this point on a track, but then given enough provocation, you can make just about anything under steer if you want to.
My gripe is that in 9 words, you seem to have fallen down the same stereotypical line as everybody else, even though you accept that it's really not that big a deal, and whilst it is only 9 words, you have to realise from this thread alone, that's what the reader takes away from your review.
Nope. People focus on the aspects that interest/irritate/confuse/fascinate them as individuals. to a point, I agree with you, I hate cars that under steer probably just as much as you do, and in the past, the older Audi Quattro's would under steer at the slightest provocation, however, B7 on-wards, unless your running no-grip front tyres, you have to push way beyond anything remotely sensible to get them into terminal under steer.
Yes, I am sure you can get to this point on a track, but then given enough provocation, you can make just about anything under steer if you want to.
My gripe is that in 9 words, you seem to have fallen down the same stereotypical line as everybody else, even though you accept that it's really not that big a deal, and whilst it is only 9 words, you have to realise from this thread alone, that's what the reader takes away from your review.
You've chosen to focus on two lines -and pigeon-hole me (wrongly in my opinion) on the basis of a few words in a long story. That is what you take from the story. Not what everyone takes. More people have asked me through Twitter, text, email etc about the handling balance of this car in terms of over/understeer than any other aspect of its performance.
Go and read those words again and you'll see that they only illustrate the chassis trends listed above. Nothing more. Nothing less.
For the avoidance of doubt - I really like 4wd road cars in the UK. They just work.
Chris Harris said:
Scuffers said:
Chris,
to a point, I agree with you, I hate cars that under steer probably just as much as you do, and in the past, the older Audi Quattro's would under steer at the slightest provocation, however, B7 on-wards, unless your running no-grip front tyres, you have to push way beyond anything remotely sensible to get them into terminal under steer.
Yes, I am sure you can get to this point on a track, but then given enough provocation, you can make just about anything under steer if you want to.
My gripe is that in 9 words, you seem to have fallen down the same stereotypical line as everybody else, even though you accept that it's really not that big a deal, and whilst it is only 9 words, you have to realise from this thread alone, that's what the reader takes away from your review.
Nope. People focus on the aspects that interest/irritate/confuse/fascinate them as individuals. to a point, I agree with you, I hate cars that under steer probably just as much as you do, and in the past, the older Audi Quattro's would under steer at the slightest provocation, however, B7 on-wards, unless your running no-grip front tyres, you have to push way beyond anything remotely sensible to get them into terminal under steer.
Yes, I am sure you can get to this point on a track, but then given enough provocation, you can make just about anything under steer if you want to.
My gripe is that in 9 words, you seem to have fallen down the same stereotypical line as everybody else, even though you accept that it's really not that big a deal, and whilst it is only 9 words, you have to realise from this thread alone, that's what the reader takes away from your review.
You've chosen to focus on two lines -and pigeon-hole me (wrongly in my opinion) on the basis of a few words in a long story. That is what you take from the story. Not what everyone takes. More people have asked me through Twitter, text, email etc about the handling balance of this car in terms of over/understeer than any other aspect of its performance.
Go and read those words again and you'll see that they only illustrate the chassis trends listed above. Nothing more. Nothing less.
For the avoidance of doubt - I really like 4wd road cars in the UK. They just work.
Chris Harris said:
Nope. People focus on the aspects that interest/irritate/confuse/fascinate them as individuals.
You've chosen to focus on two lines -and pigeon-hole me (wrongly in my opinion) on the basis of a few words in a long story. That is what you take from the story. Not what everyone takes. More people have asked me through Twitter, text, email etc about the handling balance of this car in terms of over/understeer than any other aspect of its performance.
Go and read those words again and you'll see that they only illustrate the chassis trends listed above. Nothing more. Nothing less.
For the avoidance of doubt - I really like 4wd road cars in the UK. They just work.
Chris,You've chosen to focus on two lines -and pigeon-hole me (wrongly in my opinion) on the basis of a few words in a long story. That is what you take from the story. Not what everyone takes. More people have asked me through Twitter, text, email etc about the handling balance of this car in terms of over/understeer than any other aspect of its performance.
Go and read those words again and you'll see that they only illustrate the chassis trends listed above. Nothing more. Nothing less.
For the avoidance of doubt - I really like 4wd road cars in the UK. They just work.
think we are talking cross-purposes here, it's not me that picked up the work understeer from your review, others have earlier in this thread...(which is what I am talking about).
It annoys me that no cost options on the B7 are now cost options on the B8:
- RS Bucket seats? £2175 pounds extra.
- DRC? £1750
What I want to see (and what probably isn't going to happen) is a review of the B8 RS4 as standard.
One of the items given the most praise on the B7 is just how great (when working as they should) the DRC suspension setup is. For a completely mechanical system it gives a great ride but flat and responsive handling - A true triumph of engineering if you ask me.
Many current B7 owners such as myself have said that for a standard OEM supplied suspension DRC works well and many only change due to the fragility and cost of repair.
The B8 doesn't have DRC as standard - I really want to see what the difference it makes. From the documentation it appears to have a version of the standard suspension the S4 has.
I also agree about the understeer comments on the B7 - I've found it not to understeer unless massively pushing things and for a road car an element of understeer is safer. With the B7 the suspension has no configuration options at all so needs to be good at everything - Something it achieves remarkably well. Throw enough electronics into the mix and sure, you can have your cake and eat it but it all adds weight and complexity.
- RS Bucket seats? £2175 pounds extra.
- DRC? £1750
What I want to see (and what probably isn't going to happen) is a review of the B8 RS4 as standard.
One of the items given the most praise on the B7 is just how great (when working as they should) the DRC suspension setup is. For a completely mechanical system it gives a great ride but flat and responsive handling - A true triumph of engineering if you ask me.
Many current B7 owners such as myself have said that for a standard OEM supplied suspension DRC works well and many only change due to the fragility and cost of repair.
The B8 doesn't have DRC as standard - I really want to see what the difference it makes. From the documentation it appears to have a version of the standard suspension the S4 has.
I also agree about the understeer comments on the B7 - I've found it not to understeer unless massively pushing things and for a road car an element of understeer is safer. With the B7 the suspension has no configuration options at all so needs to be good at everything - Something it achieves remarkably well. Throw enough electronics into the mix and sure, you can have your cake and eat it but it all adds weight and complexity.
Scuffers said:
when I wrote that I almost added 'on the road'...
way I see it, RS4 is not a trackday car, neither is an M3/M5/C63 etc etc. you don't buy them to do trackdays, they are road cars.
I have had Audi's for quite a few years now, and whilst I agree the old one (B5 etc) would understeer when pushes, the B8 I have now you would have to do something quite extreme to get it to push on, yes the front end is not as sharp as an M3 (I wish Audi would do something with their steering racks), but they don't plough on any more.
Whilst I agree the B7 covered it's understeer well it was still there when pushed to its limits, on road too. You can't hide it when you really push on, you can deal with it and drive around it but it's still there. My M3's were always better than the RS4 on turn in, in real terms about the same in a straight line too but where the RS4 was special was on bumpy, wet and poorly presented roads where it simply dealt with it. If the new one has lost one ounce of this aspect and by that I mean very very good damping married to exceptional all weather traction whilst providing relatively good steering feedback and confidence inspiring (on road) brakes it's going to be a disappointment.way I see it, RS4 is not a trackday car, neither is an M3/M5/C63 etc etc. you don't buy them to do trackdays, they are road cars.
I have had Audi's for quite a few years now, and whilst I agree the old one (B5 etc) would understeer when pushes, the B8 I have now you would have to do something quite extreme to get it to push on, yes the front end is not as sharp as an M3 (I wish Audi would do something with their steering racks), but they don't plough on any more.
djdestiny said:
glm1977 said:
get the impression that possibly this will help to cement the cult status of the B7.
The B7 has cult status?! Since when?The B5 does, but not the B7
B.J.W said:
flatline84 said:
B.J.W said:
The B7 RS4 Point to point, I still maintain that it was more than a match for all but the best pedalled GTR
Im sure it felt that way, but by the first corner you would not have seen where the GTR went. Not only leagues, but continents apart in terms of outright pace. B7 RS4 is still a lovely car though.Housey said:
Cult status is only relevant amongst fans. By any measurable aspect bar the ability to tune for little money the B7 had the B5 licked by some degree. It tends to be B5 owners who believe themselves part of a cult. I think both a great cars however, I personally dont get the B5 love, though I understand they can be made to go well'erererer
The B5 = small numbers, highly tuneable, cult & more fanboys likelyB7 = more rounded, ten times as many as B5 RS4, high accomplished (no tuning necessary really) = broader audience and not as many fanboys.
Both good, practical cars.
Housey said:
B.J.W said:
flatline84 said:
B.J.W said:
The B7 RS4 Point to point, I still maintain that it was more than a match for all but the best pedalled GTR
Im sure it felt that way, but by the first corner you would not have seen where the GTR went. Not only leagues, but continents apart in terms of outright pace. B7 RS4 is still a lovely car though.
New RS4 looks too tame, it's lost its edge. They should have gone down the Turbo or SC route to sort out the lack of torque and it would have reduced the CO2 levels as well.
When I spend 20K over the standard price of an A4 I expect visuals. This is an S line, and it is disappointing from looks alone. Seems over the last 4 years Audi have let their S line blend far too much into to the RS side of the business. Audi have lost the plot on a massive scale but I assume its all strategic. In 2015 they will have the RS ETRON OIL BURNER UBER TECH MAKE NO SOUND SPIRIT..........
Ducati - have you heard the engine sound on the Video? frontal shots of the car, the engine sounds like a v twin. Back shots sound like a V8 - coincidence then that Audi have bought Ducati and trying some subliminal marketing in conjoining the 2 brands? Do I win a prize?
Ducati make excellent handling motorbikes - I hope Audi don't interfere with this - TBH I think Audi have more to gain than what Ducati do. The red machines hold some special ground when it comes to emotional purchases....something Honda or Yamaha will never have.
Ducati make excellent handling motorbikes - I hope Audi don't interfere with this - TBH I think Audi have more to gain than what Ducati do. The red machines hold some special ground when it comes to emotional purchases....something Honda or Yamaha will never have.
Looks nothing at all like a cooking S-Line fer chrissakes. May not be quite the shouty "look at me RS version over here" model that some seem to want but it doesn't look like a run-of-the-mill rep mobile either, but that's Audi all over these days - more understated.
I bet if they'd put bulges everywhere, some crazy wing at the back and skirts,spoilers and vents that made it look like it had just returned from a round of the DTM there would be cries of "daft", "trying too hard", "to obvious" and "looks like it crashed into Halfords"
I bet if they'd put bulges everywhere, some crazy wing at the back and skirts,spoilers and vents that made it look like it had just returned from a round of the DTM there would be cries of "daft", "trying too hard", "to obvious" and "looks like it crashed into Halfords"
Moog72 said:
Looks nothing at all like a cooking S-Line fer chrissakes. May not be quite the shouty "look at me RS version over here" model that some seem to want but it doesn't look like a run-of-the-mill rep mobile either, but that's Audi all over these days - more understated.
I bet if they'd put bulges everywhere, some crazy wing at the back and skirts,spoilers and vents that made it look like it had just returned from a round of the DTM there would be cries of "daft", "trying too hard", "to obvious" and "looks like it crashed into Halfords"
Spot on! I bet if they'd put bulges everywhere, some crazy wing at the back and skirts,spoilers and vents that made it look like it had just returned from a round of the DTM there would be cries of "daft", "trying too hard", "to obvious" and "looks like it crashed into Halfords"
Old RS4 estate looked great, this is just average.
But these engines do not have enough torque... I test drove the S5 (convinced I would buy one) and was totally underwhelmed, was a slow and heavy car. So I then tried the RS5 and that still did not impress me at all - felt bulky, heavy and quite sluggish (especially 100mph+ it just doesn't move). So I can imagine this being very similar.
I subsequently bought a 911 Turbo and then a SL55 AMG and these solved that problem entirely.
But these engines do not have enough torque... I test drove the S5 (convinced I would buy one) and was totally underwhelmed, was a slow and heavy car. So I then tried the RS5 and that still did not impress me at all - felt bulky, heavy and quite sluggish (especially 100mph+ it just doesn't move). So I can imagine this being very similar.
I subsequently bought a 911 Turbo and then a SL55 AMG and these solved that problem entirely.
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