RE: Ferrari-developed turbo V8 on the way...
Discussion
otolith said:
You are talking about boost threshold, not lag.
Nope, I was just responding to the general terms used by others in this thread and trying to keep it simple, without going into pedant mode... however, you've bought us there anyway 
That said (IN A ONE-LINE, NUTSHELL), lag or delayed throttle response is what's felt by the driver, as the boost threshold RPM is reached, so when talking simply, I don't have an issue with folks interchanging the two.. or we can just say to hell with it and get into mechanics behind it all and ensure we stay scientifically correct 
kambites said:
suffolk009 said:
Why does everyone hate turbos so much. It's not like you get 1980s turbo lag anymore.
Yes you do and that's why I hate them. 
I've never driven a turbocharged car without annoying levels of turbo-lag.
Dave Hedgehog said:
kambites said:
suffolk009 said:
Why does everyone hate turbos so much. It's not like you get 1980s turbo lag anymore.
Yes you do and that's why I hate them. I've never driven a turbocharged car without annoying levels of turbo-lag.
356Speedster said:
otolith said:
You are talking about boost threshold, not lag.
Nope, I was just responding to the general terms used by others in this thread and trying to keep it simple, without going into pedant mode... however, you've bought us there anyway That said (IN A ONE-LINE, NUTSHELL), lag or delayed throttle response is what's felt by the driver, as the boost threshold RPM is reached, so when talking simply, I don't have an issue with folks interchanging the two.. or we can just say to hell with it and get into mechanics behind it all and ensure we stay scientifically correct If I plant the throttle in the Saab at 1200rpm, it accelerates very slowly until it builds enough revs that the turbo starts to boost. That is not lag.
If I plant the throttle in the Saab at 4000rpm, there is a little delay as the boost needle goes from nothing to max and then it accelerates. That is lag. It will do it at any rpm, it's nothing to do with revs.
otolith said:
No, the fact you are talking about revs is the giveaway.
I only stated revs in the context of the NA engine's response at low RPM, not the turbo's if you read my post.Back to topic, as well as the Masser link (which has been discussed for a while now), could the change in car taxation in Italy (as well as the usual CO2 pressures), be driving Ferrari to clean up their engines, I wonder? I wonder how long it'll be before the only screaming Ferrari engines are those in low volume halo cars?
Edited by 356Speedster on Thursday 14th June 19:32
Guvernator said:
Have you tried a BMW 335i or better yet a 997 Turbo?
I've driven (both versions of) the 335i and they're laggy. I haven't driven the 997 turbo, but I'd be amazed if it wasn't. What they do manage is to produce boost from very low revs, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with turbo-lag. You are confusing turbo lag with boost threshold. They are (almost) entirely unrelated things. Turbo-lag has nothing to do with RPM.
I know it doesn't bother a lot of people (many even like it), and it's fine for me in a car that I'm just going to be be cruising around in, but I'd never want a "fun" car with a turbocharger.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 14th June 19:28
356Speedster said:
Nope, I was just responding to the general terms used by others in this thread and trying to keep it simple, without going into pedant mode... however, you've bought us there anyway That said (IN A ONE-LINE, NUTSHELL), lag or delayed throttle response is what's felt by the driver, as the boost threshold RPM is reached, so when talking simply, I don't have an issue with folks interchanging the two.. or we can just say to hell with it and get into mechanics behind it all and ensure we stay scientifically correct
You may not be bothered, but it's both wrong and confusing when you interchange the names of two quite separate issues. It's especially wrong when you try to pick holes in the arguments of other people using the term correctly. It also encourages the ignorant to pick up on the incorrect usage and propagate it. That said (IN A ONE-LINE, NUTSHELL), lag or delayed throttle response is what's felt by the driver, as the boost threshold RPM is reached, so when talking simply, I don't have an issue with folks interchanging the two.. or we can just say to hell with it and get into mechanics behind it all and ensure we stay scientifically correct Edited by Mr2Mike on Thursday 14th June 19:43
Mr2Mike said:
You may not be bothered, but it's both wrong and confusing when you interchange the names of two quite separate issues. It's especially wrong when you try to pick holes in the arguments of other people using the term correctly. It also encourages the ignorant to pick up on the incorrect usage and propagate it.
Given this isn't a technical forum and folk generally using the term lag, no I wasn't bothered to correct other posters, but I guess it doesn't wind me up as much as others. Apologies if the casual chat has offended you.Edited by Mr2Mike on Thursday 14th June 19:43
Wow that car sounds underwhelming, but it is just a test mule and to reiterate an earlier point it won't be running anything like the final exhaust. The acoustic tuning will be done much later on in the process. I wouldn't be surprised if this engine sounds a bit muted and disappointing in the Maseratis but will probably sound great in the Ferrari.
Also, to quash an earlier suggestion that turbo engines can sound great, they sure can but they will always lose that final, very top level of tonal depth in exhaust note compared to an NA engine of a similar configuration. I've seen this attributed to various acoustic phenomena, but most convincingly ascribed to the spikes or pulses in the exhaust gas flow from the exhaust valves from the cylinders opening and shutting being smoothed out as they flow through the turbo and exit the turbo in a smooth, continuous flowing stream of gas, which takes the edge of "rortiness" off, which has to be added back in with more aggressive exhaust systems (in the case of cars where a hard, prominent exhaust note is desirable) but can ultimately never completely replicate an NA.
Also, to quash an earlier suggestion that turbo engines can sound great, they sure can but they will always lose that final, very top level of tonal depth in exhaust note compared to an NA engine of a similar configuration. I've seen this attributed to various acoustic phenomena, but most convincingly ascribed to the spikes or pulses in the exhaust gas flow from the exhaust valves from the cylinders opening and shutting being smoothed out as they flow through the turbo and exit the turbo in a smooth, continuous flowing stream of gas, which takes the edge of "rortiness" off, which has to be added back in with more aggressive exhaust systems (in the case of cars where a hard, prominent exhaust note is desirable) but can ultimately never completely replicate an NA.
kambites said:
Yes you do and that's why I hate them.
I've never driven a turbocharged car without annoying levels of turbo-lag.
nI've never driven a turbocharged car without annoying levels of turbo-lag.
I don't hate Turbo's i like them but i like choice too. I love the sound of a nicely tuned high revving n/a engine and it's looking like it's going to become the thing of the past. Honda Civic type R or VW 2.0 TSI you used to have a choice but now you don't.
Ninjaboy said:
kambites said:
Yes you do and that's why I hate them.
I've never driven a turbocharged car without annoying levels of turbo-lag.
I don't hate Turbo's i like them but i like choice too. I love the sound of a nicely tuned high revving n/a engine and it's looking like it's going to become the thing of the past. Honda Civic type R or VW 2.0 TSI you used to have a choice but now you don't.I've never driven a turbocharged car without annoying levels of turbo-lag.
I suppose I don't "hate" turbos - that's too strong a word. If the choice was between driving a turbocharged car and walking, I'd put up with the turbo.
I don't "hate" them either, I don't mind it in the Saab but I wouldn't want one in the Lotus. And I'd not swap the NA V6 in the Nissan for a blown four, nor would I have wanted one in the RX-8.
I reckon the Impreza we used to have might have been ok with a turbocharged four in it, someone should suggest it to Subaru
I reckon the Impreza we used to have might have been ok with a turbocharged four in it, someone should suggest it to Subaru
kambites said:
Ninjaboy said:
kambites said:
Yes you do and that's why I hate them.
I've never driven a turbocharged car without annoying levels of turbo-lag.
I don't hate Turbo's i like them but i like choice too. I love the sound of a nicely tuned high revving n/a engine and it's looking like it's going to become the thing of the past. Honda Civic type R or VW 2.0 TSI you used to have a choice but now you don't.I've never driven a turbocharged car without annoying levels of turbo-lag.
I suppose I don't "hate" turbos - that's too strong a word. If the choice was between driving a turbocharged car and walking, I'd put up with the turbo.
While I'm a massive manual 'box fan, I have no preference for how my engines are fed, instead recognising the benefits & charms of all options. As with anything, there are good and bad examples of each....
While supercharger whine will put many folks off, I love it and the linear power / torque delivery they provide. A well sorted turbo installation comes with it's own cacophony of wooshes, sucking and sneezing, which with a nicely tuned exhaust can be amusingly tuneful. Of course there are some epic sounding NA engines out there too. I've owned good and bad examples of each, but hand on heart, the NAs have generally not flicked my switch as much as the forced fed motors, the complete exception being my current 6.2 V8.
What's great about this debate is we've all got our own take on this topic and whether it's the power delivery, throttle response, economy or sound of a given motor, there's not right or wrong, winner or looser. Having the choice is the important thing and I really hope that we continue to have well sorted options of each for a good while yet.
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