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Great Pretender

24,753 posts

99 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
E38Ross said:
Smoothness/refinement, power, noise. A turbo charged petrol has just as good low down grunt (relative to max permissable engine speed) as a turbo diesel.
OK, reasonable comment, but the downside is greater fuel consumption.

Now, in a sports-car, I wouldn't go anywhere near a diesel, but in a big luxury car? Honestly, where the cost of fuel is a consideration, I don't understand why anyone would buy a petrol (new).




Output Flange

14,320 posts

96 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
E38Ross said:
Erm, they are? 740i, 750i and 760li are all turbo charged and more powerful than the diesel equivalent.
And what percentage of 7er sales are they going to make up? 5%? 10%?

Great Pretender

24,753 posts

99 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Fox- said:
Output Flange said:
So why aren't BMW, Merc, Audi etc all releasing turbo petrol barges?
Because the market wants max bling for lowest monthly cost and not ultra quality products now which is why manufacturers are able to drop quality standards too - most buyers do not care.
Err. You. What?

[points Fox back towards the drawing board]

Fox-

11,092 posts

131 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Sorry?

Great Pretender

24,753 posts

99 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Output Flange said:
E38Ross said:
Erm, they are? 740i, 750i and 760li are all turbo charged and more powerful than the diesel equivalent.
And what percentage of 7er sales are they going to make up? 5%? 10%?
IIRC, the new 2.0 Diesel is expected to account for 90% of total Jaguar XF sales.

But yes, it's obviously bks. Having recovered Jaguar from the brink, Tata obviously doesn't have a fking clue what its doing and has subsequently introduced the wrong engine into its core product.

In fact I'm off to write them a strongly worded email to demand that they install a small, gutless petrol engine in order to match the same emissions & economy figures set by the nasty dag-dag. And at the same time I shall jolly well ask what on earth Rattan has been doing ploughing billions of Dollars into diesel R&D.

The fool.


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Chrisw666

22,654 posts

84 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Fox- said:
Because the market wants max bling for lowest monthly cost and not ultra quality products now which is why manufacturers are able to drop quality standards too - most buyers do not care.
Money is kind of a big deal though, your life doesn't run that smoothly without it in 2012.

So to run a car I either finance a new one or buy an old cheap one.

By buying a cheaper old car for myself I don't need to worry about BIK, resale values, mpg and high servicing costs.

If I bought a newer car by any means other than cash keeping running costs low would be important and I'm 99% certain it would be a diesel. If I was getting a company car I wouldn't want to be giving the tax man more than I needed to, so faced with a 520d or a 528i I'd take the 520d as it does most things most people could want from a car.

Fox-

11,092 posts

131 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Great Pretender said:
But yes, it's obviously bks. Having recovered Jaguar from the brink, Tata obviously doesn't have a fking clue what its doing and has subsequently introduced the wrong engine into its core product.
I don't think you could have missed the point by further if you'd tried.

Nobody is saying that 4 pot diesels isn't the correct commercial decision. It is. This is what the market demands, so this is what the manufacturers produce and therefore it's what gets them the volume they need to turn decent profits and maximise shareholder value. Only a halfwit would attempt to disagree with the business sense behind putting 4 pot diesels in, well, pretty much anything that can handle one.

You appear to be arguing against a point nobody has made and thats that 4 pot diesels are pointless and they'd sell more cars if they had an underpowered petrol engine. Nobody is saying this and if they were, they would be wrong.

The point being made is not that its the wrong commercial decision, but that its a shame.

4 cylinder diesel engines are more popular than petrol engines not because they are more refined, not becuase of the power delivery and not becuase of the performance. They are more popular because they are more economical - be that in terms of fuel consumption or company car tax liability. Thats it. Thats the bottom line. You buy an E220 CDI because it's more fuel efficient and attracts lower BIK than an E350 not because it's even anything like as good an engine.

In the days of the cars that mostly inhabit this thread, quality+waft ruled the luxury car roost. Nobody was bothered that a 728 or an S280 was a bit slow because that didn't matter - it had a smooth, refined and silent powertrain to go wtih the top notch build quality. Thats what sold these cars.

These days it isn't - buyers are prioritising lease cost, CO2 emissions, BIK rating and fuel economy above quality and waft. Which is why manufacturers are able to both focus a little less on how nice the plastics feel and how refined the powertrain is and a lot more on CO2 and ownership cost.

And I think its a shame. I know why it happens, but that doesn't stop me thinking its a shame. Because I don't buy brand new barges. I buy older barges and drive them less than 10k a year. As a result what is important to me isn't the same as whats important to a new company car buyer, which is why 4 pot diesels make them happy and make me sad. I must rely on the used market, as I cannot go and spec myself a 535i.

Its right that manufacturers focus on what sells new cars. It would be wrong for them to base a product strategy on us lot because they'd sell hardly any cars and go bust.

Doesn't stop it being a shame, mind.

Great Pretender

24,753 posts

99 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Fox- said:
Great Pretender said:
But yes, it's obviously bks. Having recovered Jaguar from the brink, Tata obviously doesn't have a fking clue what its doing and has subsequently introduced the wrong engine into its core product.
I don't think you could have missed the point by further if you'd tried.

Nobody is saying that 4 pot diesels isn't the correct commercial decision. It is. This is what the market demands, so this is what the manufacturers produce and therefore it's what gets them the volume they need to turn decent profits and maximise shareholder value. Only a halfwit would attempt to disagree with the business sense behind putting 4 pot diesels in, well, pretty much anything that can handle one.

You appear to be arguing against a point nobody has made and thats that 4 pot diesels are pointless and they'd sell more cars if they had an underpowered petrol engine. Nobody is saying this and if they were, they would be wrong.

The point being made is not that its the wrong commercial decision, but that its a shame.

4 cylinder diesel engines are more popular than petrol engines not because they are more refined, not becuase of the power delivery and not becuase of the performance. They are more popular because they are more economical - be that in terms of fuel consumption or company car tax liability. Thats it. Thats the bottom line. You buy an E220 CDI because it's more fuel efficient and attracts lower BIK than an E350 not because it's even anything like as good an engine.

In the days of the cars that mostly inhabit this thread, quality+waft ruled the luxury car roost. Nobody was bothered that a 728 or an S280 was a bit slow because that didn't matter - it had a smooth, refined and silent powertrain to go wtih the top notch build quality. Thats what sold these cars.

These days it isn't - buyers are prioritising lease cost, CO2 emissions, BIK rating and fuel economy above quality and waft. Which is why manufacturers are able to both focus a little less on how nice the plastics feel and how refined the powertrain is and a lot more on CO2 and ownership cost.

And I think its a shame. I know why it happens, but that doesn't stop me thinking its a shame. Because I don't buy brand new barges. I buy older barges and drive them less than 10k a year. As a result what is important to me isn't the same as whats important to a new company car buyer, which is why 4 pot diesels make them happy and make me sad. I must rely on the used market, as I cannot go and spec myself a 535i.
C'mon Dan we're leaving. My brain has simply dissolved into mush.

BeirutTaxi

5,699 posts

99 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Output Flange said:
Except the diesel will have far more torque than the 6 pot, so won't need its neck wringing to get it to move along. In big, modern luxobarges the noise of the engine rarely enters the cabin without the window down, so that doesn't need to be a consideration.
Driven two heavy cars with 6 banger gasoline engines, Neither needed to be strangled in order to make progress. Quite the contrary I found, in fact.

Pappa Lurve

3,819 posts

167 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Recently drove the new XF oil burner. Granted it is not a barnstormer of a car in terms of performance but it is a LOT better than the old version and to be honest, other than the astounding MPG I would not have known it was not petrol. Would I buy one? well, I tend to like a bit more grunt in cars but the XF certainly should not be looked at as a diesel and thus a compresses but as a genuinely superb car with very good MPG (I got 47 on mixed driving, and I was not going for economy!). They may be a tad out of the cost of this thread but they will get here in time and I can assure you, it is a truly excellent machine.

Krikkit

4,990 posts

66 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Which one did you drive Papa, the 2.0 or the 2.7?

BeirutTaxi

5,699 posts

99 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Pappa Lurve said:
Recently drove the new XF oil burner. Granted it is not a barnstormer of a car in terms of performance but it is a LOT better than the old version and to be honest, other than the astounding MPG I would not have known it was not petrol. Would I buy one? well, I tend to like a bit more grunt in cars but the XF certainly should not be looked at as a diesel and thus a compresses but as a genuinely superb car with very good MPG (I got 47 on mixed driving, and I was not going for economy!). They may be a tad out of the cost of this thread but they will get here in time and I can assure you, it is a truly excellent machine.
Maybe, however once modern diesels pass about 10 years/100k miles I'm not convinced that they are more economical than a big petrol due to their maintenance bills.

Pappa Lurve

3,819 posts

167 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Krikkit said:
Which one did you drive Papa, the 2.0 or the 2.7?
Actually, driven the 2.7. 2 and the new 2.2. 2 was a tad gutless, 2.2 is an excellent car but for my tastes, could use a bit more power. 2.7 is one of the best all round cars I know right now. Writing about them all now actually.

As for long term costs and repairs, no idea about stuff like that on oil burners but one assumes that they are by now pretty sorted, although I fully accept I don't know that from experience so could be talking balls about that!

Output Flange

14,320 posts

96 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
BeirutTaxi said:
Driven two heavy cars with 6 banger gasoline engines, Neither needed to be strangled in order to make progress. Quite the contrary I found, in fact.
Really? Really?

Two examples - the X300 XJ6 3.2 and the E38 728i. Neither are fast cars. Neither are brisk cars. You can just about call them adequate (if memory serves the Jag has the legs on the BMW by a smidge).

The book figure for 0-60 for the 728i is a shade over 9 seconds. That'll be achieved by thrashing it to within an inch of its life, and it's still 9 seconds.

If you're going to have a big barge and a petrol engine, have a big barge with a big petrol engine.

edo

14,481 posts

150 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2012...




BMW 5 SERIES 535i Sport 4dr Auto Saloon 3.5 2002
57,000 miles
Low miles, full service history, top spec, sat nav ( upgraded to 2012 mapping), heated elec leather seats, elec folding mirrors, auto wipers and lights (xenon), sunroof, cruise control, climate control, parking sensors, cd changer plus more. 6 MONTHS TAX, MOT TILL JULY. You won't find a better example than this. Genuine reason for sale. Petrol, Automatic, Sports seats, Remote Central locking, Electric door mirrors, Heated door mirrors, Trip computer, Drivers airbag. £œ5,199

W00DY

7,857 posts

111 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Output Flange said:
Really? Really?

Two examples - the X300 XJ6 3.2 and the E38 728i. Neither are fast cars. Neither are brisk cars. You can just about call them adequate (if memory serves the Jag has the legs on the BMW by a smidge).

The book figure for 0-60 for the 728i is a shade over 9 seconds. That'll be achieved by thrashing it to within an inch of its life, and it's still 9 seconds.

If you're going to have a big barge and a petrol engine, have a big barge with a big petrol engine.
0-60 is never going to be the friend of a heavy, auto barge and isn't something that'll ever really be important in the real world. My 4.0 Xj40 turned a very decent pace between 30-100. which is the most useful range and the one where effortlessness is defined IMHO.

louiebaby

5,586 posts

76 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
edo said:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2012...

BMW 5 SERIES 535i Sport 4dr Auto Saloon 3.5 2002 57,000 miles £5,199
Lovely. I like the colour too.

BigBen

7,426 posts

115 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Pappa Lurve said:
Krikkit said:
Which one did you drive Papa, the 2.0 or the 2.7?
Actually, driven the 2.7. 2 and the new 2.2. 2 was a tad gutless, 2.2 is an excellent car but for my tastes, could use a bit more power. 2.7 is one of the best all round cars I know right now. Writing about them all now actually.

As for long term costs and repairs, no idea about stuff like that on oil burners but one assumes that they are by now pretty sorted, although I fully accept I don't know that from experience so could be talking balls about that!
We have a 2.2 in the family fleet and it is a very good car, sat happily with 4 up at around 90 leptons on a recent motorway trip. Fairly quiet and with the million speed gear box relatively refined. Perhaps a bit slow from 70 - 100 but that does not matter too much day to day.

sparks_E39

8,279 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
edo said:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2012...




BMW 5 SERIES 535i Sport 4dr Auto Saloon 3.5 2002
57,000 miles
Low miles, full service history, top spec, sat nav ( upgraded to 2012 mapping), heated elec leather seats, elec folding mirrors, auto wipers and lights (xenon), sunroof, cruise control, climate control, parking sensors, cd changer plus more. 6 MONTHS TAX, MOT TILL JULY. You won't find a better example than this. Genuine reason for sale. Petrol, Automatic, Sports seats, Remote Central locking, Electric door mirrors, Heated door mirrors, Trip computer, Drivers airbag. £œ5,199
Very nice, but again optimistic pricing on one of the least loved E39 engines.

Output Flange

14,320 posts

96 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
W00DY said:
0-60 is never going to be the friend of a heavy, auto barge and isn't something that'll ever really be important in the real world. My 4.0 Xj40 turned a very decent pace between 30-100. which is the most useful range and the one where effortlessness is defined IMHO.
Sure, weight isn't helpful in a 0-60 sprint.

So the 728i 0-60 is 9.2 seconds. The 0-100 is 24.6. So 15 seconds from 60-100. That's not effortless waft.
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