My car just scared the carp out of me
Discussion
Krikkit said:
Just tell them the rear feels like it has a mind of its own when it really shouldn't and see what they reckon!
Felt a bit of a plonker wiggling my hips about and gesticulating with my hands in front of me talking about undulations and bumps to a female employee the the side of the desk.She felt my pain and said "bring it in tomorrow and we will fling it in the air and have a look at it..."
coombsfh said:
I will try to give as much info as possible here as I know a lot of details may help to diagnose what has gone on.
-My car is an X reg BMW E46 330D with 80000 miles on (FSH)
-It is the first RWD car I have owned, not he first RWD car I have ever driven though
-I do motorway miles and weekend pootling
-Before today I have noticed that the cars "hips wiggle" when going ove undulations in the road and accelerating - a good example is comig down a slip road and merging into the slow lane where lorries have worn grooves
-I am comfortable when cars loose traction - I understand the fundiments of what will make it happen and how to correct it in FWD and RWD cars but I am by no means the stig.
-As an aside - The other night I purposeully went somewhere private ad wet (
) to see how the car behaved when it lost traction and I was surprised to see it UNDERSTEER a lot of the time, until "over-pushed" - ie the back end did not seem to slide out predictably or progressively.
Today on the way to work I got a puncture. The argument I faced was with a van with a trailer in tow doing close to mach 3 down a thin country road or with a kerb at 20mph ish... I chose the kerb and duly set about changing the tyre (without my nice clean work shirt on) in the rain.
The tyres are now mismatched - Fronts are different and the spare was a P-6000 whihc is now passenger side.
I acknowledge these need changing and will be done tomorrow, this has only been included for the sake of completeness really
Now on to this evening...
I overtook a very sedate driver (doing 35 in a 60) and had eons of room so was in no hurry. I put my foot 1/3 of the way down and began wafting up closer to it and prepared to move out (dry road). As soon as I steered right, around the sloth-vehicle and went over a small undulation in the road the "hip wiggle" I believed to be characteristic went wild and the car almost kicked round on me (TC ON).
A minute or so up the road, going in a straight line, the back swang the other way, almost like ti was steering itself with no warning and scared the hell out of me.
My questionsare as follows:
-What may be causing it
-Why did it do it under gentle throttle in the dry but wouldn't slide properly when provoked with harder throttle in the wet
-Has hitting the kerb (full size spare used) done something?
-Could rear trailing arm bushes be shot, rear arb bushes, drop links, front wishbone bushes and wishbones, front arb links and bushes or shocks and spring s be contributing as I wanna replace the lto soon
-Only other thing I can think is shot subframe mounts??
Any advice appreciated as in a car this (potentially fast) I now feel unsafe and unable to predict handling at all!!
Best,
Fred
PS no accident damage and HPI clear 2 owers - straight car
Your rear trailing arms bushes (RTABs) are possibly knackered. Very common and causes the the symptoms you describe.-My car is an X reg BMW E46 330D with 80000 miles on (FSH)
-It is the first RWD car I have owned, not he first RWD car I have ever driven though
-I do motorway miles and weekend pootling
-Before today I have noticed that the cars "hips wiggle" when going ove undulations in the road and accelerating - a good example is comig down a slip road and merging into the slow lane where lorries have worn grooves
-I am comfortable when cars loose traction - I understand the fundiments of what will make it happen and how to correct it in FWD and RWD cars but I am by no means the stig.
-As an aside - The other night I purposeully went somewhere private ad wet (
) to see how the car behaved when it lost traction and I was surprised to see it UNDERSTEER a lot of the time, until "over-pushed" - ie the back end did not seem to slide out predictably or progressively.Today on the way to work I got a puncture. The argument I faced was with a van with a trailer in tow doing close to mach 3 down a thin country road or with a kerb at 20mph ish... I chose the kerb and duly set about changing the tyre (without my nice clean work shirt on) in the rain.
The tyres are now mismatched - Fronts are different and the spare was a P-6000 whihc is now passenger side.
I acknowledge these need changing and will be done tomorrow, this has only been included for the sake of completeness really
Now on to this evening...
I overtook a very sedate driver (doing 35 in a 60) and had eons of room so was in no hurry. I put my foot 1/3 of the way down and began wafting up closer to it and prepared to move out (dry road). As soon as I steered right, around the sloth-vehicle and went over a small undulation in the road the "hip wiggle" I believed to be characteristic went wild and the car almost kicked round on me (TC ON).
A minute or so up the road, going in a straight line, the back swang the other way, almost like ti was steering itself with no warning and scared the hell out of me.
My questionsare as follows:
-What may be causing it
-Why did it do it under gentle throttle in the dry but wouldn't slide properly when provoked with harder throttle in the wet
-Has hitting the kerb (full size spare used) done something?
-Could rear trailing arm bushes be shot, rear arb bushes, drop links, front wishbone bushes and wishbones, front arb links and bushes or shocks and spring s be contributing as I wanna replace the lto soon
-Only other thing I can think is shot subframe mounts??
Any advice appreciated as in a car this (potentially fast) I now feel unsafe and unable to predict handling at all!!
Best,
Fred
PS no accident damage and HPI clear 2 owers - straight car
SuperVM said:
Great Pretender said:
Your rear trailing arms bushes (RTABs) are possibly knackered. Very common and causes the the symptoms you describe.
I tend to agree. I've replaced the RTABs on both of my E36es and it makes a huge difference. Edited by coombsfh on Tuesday 26th June 11:41
- *FAULT UNCOVERED - ON THE ROAD TO RECOVERY***
I took it to Clayton cars and a thorough check of the suspension was carried out free of charge. They even let me scuttle about under the ramp and showed me what was going on by levering various bushes and shaking tings.
They found out the following:
-The rear subframe isn't cracked at all - looks and feels totally solid. They said it is rarer than forums suggest; maybe they see 3 a year on average.
-The RTAB have 5mm+ play in. You can see the metal insert is no longer friends with the rubber and is even polished where it rubs so much. The guy explained that a small movement at the bush is amplified greatly and translates into wobbly wheels... A rear end that steers itself.
-The front wishbone bushes are not the worst he had seen but were by no means perfect. He suggested they are replaced.
-Also suggested were the front and rear ARB bushes since they will be in the vicinity and fiddling about.
-Finally a 4 wheel alignment (tyres is a given) was suggested once all of the bushy gubbins is done.
-Droplinks and balljoints all fine. Track rod ends fine. Shocks and springs fine.
So, when I started discussing what to do about replacing things he suggested getting all of the bushes done at once as a 4 wheel track will be more meaningful on a car that is sitting properly.
He suggested I could either buy the bushes and bring them in to get them fitted (pay only labour costs (2.5 - 3 hours for the above bushes to be done) or I could get them to order the bits in and get them to do the lot.
Help me to draw my conclusions please.
-Should I buy on ebay and only pay labour (saving on P&P costs)?
-Should I let them fit their own stuff?
-I am using powerflex bushes - This is my mistake to make and I will pay for it if I am wrong... Am I wrong?
-Since they are fiddling about anyway and I am in a bushy mood - should I bite the bullet and get the subframe bushes done too?
-Finally, these guys charge £65 for a 4 wheel alignment (adjustments included). They also charge £65 an hour on labour. Is this fair and about "the going rate"?
Thanks for all of your advice and help. Well done for everyone who diagnosed the problem blind. Better luck next time for those that didn't.
Any advice on a best supplier of powerflex bushes greatly appreciated.
Best wishes,
Fred.
Baz Tench said:
The labour rates are about average, and I personally would let them order the stuff in and do all the necessary work. I would imagine they will buy at trade price, and the right parts will be guaranteed.
Much better than faffing about on Ebay yourself in my opinion.
Cheers Baz. Might be the best Idea. The only thing I want to have changed/made sure of is that the "lollipop" wishbone bushes are the newer, 66mm ones.Much better than faffing about on Ebay yourself in my opinion.
coombsfh said:
***FAULT UNCOVERED - ON THE ROAD TO RECOVERY***
OK boys and girls I have some news.
I took it to Clayton cars and a thorough check of the suspension was carried out free of charge. They even let me scuttle about under the ramp and showed me what was going on by levering various bushes and shaking tings.
They found out the following:
-The rear subframe isn't cracked at all - looks and feels totally solid. They said it is rarer than forums suggest; maybe they see 3 a year on average.
-The RTAB have 5mm+ play in. You can see the metal insert is no longer friends with the rubber and is even polished where it rubs so much. The guy explained that a small movement at the bush is amplified greatly and translates into wobbly wheels... A rear end that steers itself.
-The front wishbone bushes are not the worst he had seen but were by no means perfect. He suggested they are replaced.
-Also suggested were the front and rear ARB bushes since they will be in the vicinity and fiddling about.
-Finally a 4 wheel alignment (tyres is a given) was suggested once all of the bushy gubbins is done.
-Droplinks and balljoints all fine. Track rod ends fine. Shocks and springs fine.
So, when I started discussing what to do about replacing things he suggested getting all of the bushes done at once as a 4 wheel track will be more meaningful on a car that is sitting properly.
He suggested I could either buy the bushes and bring them in to get them fitted (pay only labour costs (2.5 - 3 hours for the above bushes to be done) or I could get them to order the bits in and get them to do the lot.
Help me to draw my conclusions please.
-Should I buy on ebay and only pay labour (saving on P&P costs)?
-Should I let them fit their own stuff?
-I am using powerflex bushes - This is my mistake to make and I will pay for it if I am wrong... Am I wrong?
-Since they are fiddling about anyway and I am in a bushy mood - should I bite the bullet and get the subframe bushes done too?
-Finally, these guys charge £65 for a 4 wheel alignment (adjustments included). They also charge £65 an hour on labour. Is this fair and about "the going rate"?
Thanks for all of your advice and help. Well done for everyone who diagnosed the problem blind. Better luck next time for those that didn't.
Any advice on a best supplier of powerflex bushes greatly appreciated.
Best wishes,
Fred.
Your choice, but I would stay away from bushes that are not manufacturers intent. Steering stability and precision could be negatively impacted. Also, they can squeak, a lot.OK boys and girls I have some news.
I took it to Clayton cars and a thorough check of the suspension was carried out free of charge. They even let me scuttle about under the ramp and showed me what was going on by levering various bushes and shaking tings.
They found out the following:
-The rear subframe isn't cracked at all - looks and feels totally solid. They said it is rarer than forums suggest; maybe they see 3 a year on average.
-The RTAB have 5mm+ play in. You can see the metal insert is no longer friends with the rubber and is even polished where it rubs so much. The guy explained that a small movement at the bush is amplified greatly and translates into wobbly wheels... A rear end that steers itself.
-The front wishbone bushes are not the worst he had seen but were by no means perfect. He suggested they are replaced.
-Also suggested were the front and rear ARB bushes since they will be in the vicinity and fiddling about.
-Finally a 4 wheel alignment (tyres is a given) was suggested once all of the bushy gubbins is done.
-Droplinks and balljoints all fine. Track rod ends fine. Shocks and springs fine.
So, when I started discussing what to do about replacing things he suggested getting all of the bushes done at once as a 4 wheel track will be more meaningful on a car that is sitting properly.
He suggested I could either buy the bushes and bring them in to get them fitted (pay only labour costs (2.5 - 3 hours for the above bushes to be done) or I could get them to order the bits in and get them to do the lot.
Help me to draw my conclusions please.
-Should I buy on ebay and only pay labour (saving on P&P costs)?
-Should I let them fit their own stuff?
-I am using powerflex bushes - This is my mistake to make and I will pay for it if I am wrong... Am I wrong?
-Since they are fiddling about anyway and I am in a bushy mood - should I bite the bullet and get the subframe bushes done too?
-Finally, these guys charge £65 for a 4 wheel alignment (adjustments included). They also charge £65 an hour on labour. Is this fair and about "the going rate"?
Thanks for all of your advice and help. Well done for everyone who diagnosed the problem blind. Better luck next time for those that didn't.
Any advice on a best supplier of powerflex bushes greatly appreciated.
Best wishes,
Fred.
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