RE: PH Blog: BMW M6 and the art of noise
Discussion
PastorOfMuppets said:
Yeah I understand that, but why not offer it here too? Surely there would've been enough sales to justify it? Pretty sure the folks at BMW don't read PH - or if they do they ignore what they see.
Not ignoring, I just cant do anything about it....find an engineer here who doesnt agree and ill give you a tenner. Unfortunately, we have these marketing people, and, well, more rich people who cant drive to save their lives buy the M5/6 than enthusiasts. Our office agrees wholehartedly that turbos dont belong in an M car, that it should be as light as possible and have a manual box. They pull out sales statistics and whoops, s
tty M car. Not that this pisses me off or anything.....I feel we're in rather worrying times for the driving enthusiast. Cars getting faster, quieter, more capable but also less involving and possibly less stimulating. I'm pretty horrified that BMW, of whom I've been a lifetime fan, feel the need to synthesise sound. I would love to see the position we're in in 10 years time.
On a personal note, this is actually one of the defining reasons that I've decided to go out with a bang. I've never owned a V8 and I have a genuine concern that should I miss my chance, aside from the regret of not owning one, I won't even be able to rectify the mistake with a new car; they'll be no V8s for sale apart from in hypercars. Hence I've ordered a C63 AMG. Yes it'll cost me a bomb, but it's a price worth paying as opposed to a long time (even a life time) of regret.
Then after that, it'll be Captain FWD diesel sensibility and a Caterham for the weekend.
On a personal note, this is actually one of the defining reasons that I've decided to go out with a bang. I've never owned a V8 and I have a genuine concern that should I miss my chance, aside from the regret of not owning one, I won't even be able to rectify the mistake with a new car; they'll be no V8s for sale apart from in hypercars. Hence I've ordered a C63 AMG. Yes it'll cost me a bomb, but it's a price worth paying as opposed to a long time (even a life time) of regret.
Then after that, it'll be Captain FWD diesel sensibility and a Caterham for the weekend.
German said:
PastorOfMuppets said:
Yeah I understand that, but why not offer it here too? Surely there would've been enough sales to justify it? Pretty sure the folks at BMW don't read PH - or if they do they ignore what they see.
Not ignoring, I just cant do anything about it....find an engineer here who doesnt agree and ill give you a tenner. Unfortunately, we have these marketing people, and, well, more rich people who cant drive to save their lives buy the M5/6 than enthusiasts. Our office agrees wholehartedly that turbos dont belong in an M car, that it should be as light as possible and have a manual box. They pull out sales statistics and whoops, stty M car. Not that this pisses me off or anything.....nav p said:
German said:
PastorOfMuppets said:
Yeah I understand that, but why not offer it here too? Surely there would've been enough sales to justify it? Pretty sure the folks at BMW don't read PH - or if they do they ignore what they see.
Not ignoring, I just cant do anything about it....find an engineer here who doesnt agree and ill give you a tenner. Unfortunately, we have these marketing people, and, well, more rich people who cant drive to save their lives buy the M5/6 than enthusiasts. Our office agrees wholehartedly that turbos dont belong in an M car, that it should be as light as possible and have a manual box. They pull out sales statistics and whoops, stty M car. Not that this pisses me off or anything.....As said before, I so wish there could be a CSL type variant as a standard option. Sold alongside the poncy version at similar money, bringing back the choice of a proper M/// car - catering for both the ones in the know who care about such things and the ones who simply have the money and don't really know / care.
Rectify the situation of 'M' coming to stand for Marketing.
PastorOfMuppets said:
nav p said:
German said:
PastorOfMuppets said:
Yeah I understand that, but why not offer it here too? Surely there would've been enough sales to justify it? Pretty sure the folks at BMW don't read PH - or if they do they ignore what they see.
Not ignoring, I just cant do anything about it....find an engineer here who doesnt agree and ill give you a tenner. Unfortunately, we have these marketing people, and, well, more rich people who cant drive to save their lives buy the M5/6 than enthusiasts. Our office agrees wholehartedly that turbos dont belong in an M car, that it should be as light as possible and have a manual box. They pull out sales statistics and whoops, stty M car. Not that this pisses me off or anything.....As said before, I so wish there could be a CSL type variant as a standard option. Sold alongside the poncy version at similar money, bringing back the choice of a proper M/// car - catering for both the ones in the know who care about such things and the ones who simply have the money and don't really know / care.
Rectify the situation of 'M' coming to stand for Marketing.
I think every car company is so concerned with getting a sure footing in devealoping markets they are almost ignoring european car buyers. Fair enough from a business standpoint when you have 250+% growth in one section of the market and stable figures elsewhere, but that is no justificaton to remove the cars the business was built on from all markets completely. And lets face it, devealoping a M3, then offering one for sale for the same money minus half the expensive electronics, DCT box, with ONE FIXED suspension set up isnt going to hurt anyones pocket is it? The only thing that costs would be the extra type approval, but id suggest the margins would still be larger than on a standard car. Someone somewhere needs shouting at :/PascalBuyens said:
As for the sound question: turbos kill a lot of the exhaust noise, so IMHO it's a pretty general thing for any turbocharged engine.
There are plenty of turbo cars available which sound awesome so there really is no excuse. The closest AMG rivals sound superb. BMW are either1) Being lazy
2) The accountants decided an electronic noise box was cheaper than a properly devloped exhaust system
3) The marketing people decided via comittee that people didn't want loud M cars anymore.
BMW's new Joy of Driving ads are a joke. If they cared about the joy of driving, they wouldn't be releasing sh*t M cars. They are definately on a downward trend at the moment.
Interesting, it seems I'm the only person here who would prefer the M6 to the 640d! Reminds me of the article last week saying all Audi S cars are better than RS.
The M6 has a proper differential, better suspension, better brakes, twin clutch gearbox and thats before the small matter of 240bhp extra.
All this crap about torque/weight ratios, the M6 is designed to be revved and when you do the 640d will disappear into the rear view mirror. Even if you don't, is 502 lbft from 1,500rpm not enough?
I agree that the exhaust could sound better but it doesn't stop me wanting this car. I also understand the general argument from people who want performance through lightness first and foremost. But this is a GT car, GT cars aren't supposed to be lightweight.
The M6 has a proper differential, better suspension, better brakes, twin clutch gearbox and thats before the small matter of 240bhp extra.
All this crap about torque/weight ratios, the M6 is designed to be revved and when you do the 640d will disappear into the rear view mirror. Even if you don't, is 502 lbft from 1,500rpm not enough?
I agree that the exhaust could sound better but it doesn't stop me wanting this car. I also understand the general argument from people who want performance through lightness first and foremost. But this is a GT car, GT cars aren't supposed to be lightweight.
I've listened to a recording of the difference on the M5 with and without the active sound (googled "f10 m5 active sound disabled") and from what I can hear from that recording, I'd say the embarrassment of having the feature far outweighs the small difference it makes.
I'm starting to struggle to see how M will really differentiate against Audi S and AMG, if it continues in this way. Many would argue that the Audi interior is better, many will see 4WD as a benefit over RWD, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the new M3 is no better to drive than the equivalent Audi. Badge-wise I'm not sure BMW carries anything over the other two. This is all said with a heavy heart, as I drive an E36 M3.
I have been, sadly, wondering if this *is* the way forward and BMW in their prescience have realised that this turbo-8 will still sound excellent in comparison to whatever hybrids we're driving around in 15 years. I hope not.
Does anyone know if the M cars changed from being low/non-profit halo models to for-profit models at some point?
I'm starting to struggle to see how M will really differentiate against Audi S and AMG, if it continues in this way. Many would argue that the Audi interior is better, many will see 4WD as a benefit over RWD, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the new M3 is no better to drive than the equivalent Audi. Badge-wise I'm not sure BMW carries anything over the other two. This is all said with a heavy heart, as I drive an E36 M3.
I have been, sadly, wondering if this *is* the way forward and BMW in their prescience have realised that this turbo-8 will still sound excellent in comparison to whatever hybrids we're driving around in 15 years. I hope not.
Does anyone know if the M cars changed from being low/non-profit halo models to for-profit models at some point?
Dont see what all the fuss is about. Get an Eisenmann exhaust or similar fitted....Job done!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okTjRKdzGE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okTjRKdzGE0
ads_green said:
Its not that the 640d is better than the m6 or the s cars being better than the RS ones.
They are not - end of.
It's the argument that are they so much better to justify the extra price tag?
Is the m6 30k better than the 640d ? And this is where you start to have doubts...
I see what you're saying but I don't agree. They are not - end of.
It's the argument that are they so much better to justify the extra price tag?
Is the m6 30k better than the 640d ? And this is where you start to have doubts...
Is a Gallardo V10 worth the £40k extra over an R8 V10? Is a Rolex worth £9,993 more than my £7 Casio?
If you are going to save £30,000 by buying a 640d over an M5 then why not save another £20,000 and buy the 535d instead of the 640d? You get the same engine but save a fortune and get two extra doors!
Fact is, if you want the top of the range model from any manufacturer then you have to pay a disproportionate premium, it's not just a BMW thing. Part of that is recouping the R&D costs over a smaller number of cars and part of that is simply because they can.
Those people who can afford this car will buy it and be very happy, those of us who can't will buy the diesel version instead and spend the rest of time justifying it to others (ourselves) why it offers better value for money.
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