RE: PH Fleet: Lotus Elise Sport 135

RE: PH Fleet: Lotus Elise Sport 135

Author
Discussion

MagicalTrevor

6,476 posts

228 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
This thread needs the latest video. And the previous video for comparison

atl

76 posts

230 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Very odd.

What settings are you running on the Nitrons?

I went from mintex 1144's, to yellow stuff pads to Carbon Lorraines.

The CL's were in a totally different class when it cames to feel and braking performance.

Could be that you just need to get used to a different setup?

Also perhaps look at your tyre pressures?

hughcam

411 posts

164 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
suffolk009 said:
Just a thought,... but maybe the ride and handling engineers at Lotus got it right.
No real need for the derogatory post.....

As mentioned above its easy to improve on knackered old bilsteins/konis with nie shiny Nitrons. I would have had the geometry set to 340r settings and possibly invested in new wheels to enable the fitment of 195 tyres on the front. That would most likely solve the lack of corner grip. The brakes on the other hand could be glazed pads/boiled fluid.

Softening the dampers aswell may help alot with all areas.

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
What tyre pressures were you running?

What changes or adjustments to the damper settings were made on the day?

MarJay

2,173 posts

174 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Turn in problem sounds like a geometry thing. Maybe the Nitrons are set up to be used with a more aggressive geometry?

PascalBuyens

2,868 posts

281 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
I never really liked the Advan Neova's on track. They lost a lot of grip as soon as you had them gone through a track heat cycle.
I remember on one occasion, during a day of taking out passengers for one of Belgium's biggest breakdown services, and just having fitted brand new Neovas, they were already starting to wear out after only half a day. Granted, it was 30-ish Celsius at the time, but still... they're not really track tyres if you ask me.

Can't comment on the CL pads personally, but aren't those the ones that are reported to break? Personally I always drove with Pagid RS14s, and braided brake hoses (which helps a LOT in avoiding brake fade).

Also, if you had the suspension done: which geo setup did you go for? Close to 340R dry track settings usually worked the best for me, IIRC the toe in at the rear was 0.5", I had it set to 0.75", which seemed to work very well with the Honda conversion...

One other thing I could think of: did you change the anti roll bar too when switching to Nitrons? I had an adjustable one in mine and always found the car to be that little bit quicker when setting the front a bit softer. Putting it less soft made the car understeer a lot more and (IMO) slower. The Nitrons probably have a higher Nm rate than the Bilsteins, so I suspect that the front is "too stiff" compared to the rest of the car, hence the understeer...

Just my 2p of course smile

Edited by PascalBuyens on Thursday 28th June 13:00

danwebster

503 posts

233 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Hankook RS2's are very grippy tyres when hot, more so than neova's.

Birdthom

788 posts

224 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Yokonovas and nitrons were a huge improvement on my S1 compared to RS2s and standard suspension. Sounds to me like a setup/geometry issue and probably glazed pads from hammering them before they have bedded in properly.

As well as being cooler, if there had been a lot of rain in the days before you went out the track may have been a lot more green than last time you were there.

Check the pads and geo and get back out there on a warm day before complicating things any further by making more changes.

Failing that, go out and buy some bravery pills.

TameRacingDriver

18,036 posts

271 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Renomaxi said:
When will people leave cars alone...lotus have some of the best engineers in the country working on a purpose built circuit to develop this car which being so light and stiff will respond to changes you put in.
Pads could be glazed if you have changed compounds you must de-glaze the discs 1st to rid all remnants of old material but it sounds like the pad is too hard an 1144 is fine for regular drivers and gives good feel which is far more important to regular drivers, these latest craze carbon pads and discs are largely unnecessary and people cannot use them correctly or forever lock wheels up especially with lowered cars that have not been bump steered correctly.
Changing dampers unless you know the valving and have the appropriate spring changes to suit you could have done any number of things to the car and if we were to change something that significant we would have a professional driver shake down the car with engineers to establish solutions to this problem involving roll bars, bump, rebound blah blah blah do you have these? If not my suggestion is spend the most important thing...track time in the car you knew well and consistently and learn to drive it better and smoother you cannot do that if you move the datum point.
We call it the art of complicating track driving, leave the car alone and drive it if you are not competing you have no need to feel like you are under equipped so keep it simple.
Grippy tyres are not always the key either they can remove a fluid blanced car to an edgy unforgiving car in one swift move again without suitable changes. If it was catalogue simple to make racing cars...kids could do it.
I was thinking this myself.

Although I don't claim to be an expert on how to set a car up, I'd say Lotus probably are. The internet is full of folks who *think* they know best, but in reality do they?

OK not an Elise, but my newly bought 172 had oversized wheels, lowered suspension and track pads on it. And having gone back to standard, the car is WAY quicker in every respect. Now yes, I realise mine was probably poorly modified, but the car is just right the way Renault intended, and I suspect that will be the case here too, Lotus are renowned experts on making cars go quickly!

Sicob

478 posts

227 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
PascalBuyens said:
I never really liked the Advan Neova's on track. They lost a lot of grip as soon as you had them gone through a track heat cycle.
I remember on one occasion, during a day of taking out passengers for one of Belgium's biggest breakdown services, and just having fitted brand new Neovas, they were already starting to wear out after only half a day. Granted, it was 30-ish Celsius at the time, but still... they're not really track tyres if you ask me.

Edited by PascalBuyens on Thursday 28th June 13:00
Spot on. I was at Donnigton I think. 2-3 laps on Neovas and they were melting badly. Balls of rubber coming off. Checked tyre pressures etc, all good. Tyres were awful for the track I thought.

lou_m

67 posts

245 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Changed the brake fluid recently? I've just had the fluid changed on my VX and it was like tar....

PascalBuyens

2,868 posts

281 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Sicob said:
Spot on. I was at Donnigton I think. 2-3 laps on Neovas and they were melting badly. Balls of rubber coming off. Checked tyre pressures etc, all good. Tyres were awful for the track I thought.
I could litteraly peel the whole profile blocks off of them one by one...

Switched to Dunlop SP Sport 9000 after that, and never looked back smile

As for the Hankooks: I've got Ventus ST2 on the Range Sport, and VERY impressed with them. On my 2nd set in just over 150k miles, and it's been quite a few times round the Ring already too, so not just motorway munching...

I'd say the Neovas were definitely a step backwards. Sorry OP...

Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
PascalBuyens said:
As for the Hankooks: I've got Ventus ST2 on the Range Sport, and VERY impressed with them. On my 2nd set in just over 150k miles,
You are averaging 75k to a set of tyres? yikes

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

264 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
hughcam said:
suffolk009 said:
Just a thought,... but maybe the ride and handling engineers at Lotus got it right.
No real need for the derogatory post.....
The fact you think it's a derogatory post is pretty derogatory to the ride and handling engineers at Lotus.

[/promotingharmonyandeveryonejustgettingalong]

Gadgeroonie

5,362 posts

235 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
see if you can compare your cornering speeds with the go pro footage

if your speeds are higher then the new shocks are working

if they are slower you are loosing grip or it does not suit your driving style

i suspect you are loosing time in the braking - try some different pads and see if your confidence returns

braddo

10,377 posts

187 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Captain Muppet said:
hughcam said:
suffolk009 said:
Just a thought,... but maybe the ride and handling engineers at Lotus got it right.
No real need for the derogatory post.....
The fact you think it's a derogatory post is pretty derogatory to the ride and handling engineers at Lotus.

[/promotingharmonyandeveryonejustgettingalong]
For a road based ride/handling compromise they are peerless, but it doesn't mean they use the best dampers they want (budget constraints), that the dampers can't be improved, or that if an owner wants to compromise ride in order to be faster around a track, that non-factory stuff won't be an improvement.

For what it's worth I enjoyed my Elise on track with original Konis though.

suffolk009

5,303 posts

164 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
braddo said:
Captain Muppet said:
hughcam said:
suffolk009 said:
Just a thought,... but maybe the ride and handling engineers at Lotus got it right.
No real need for the derogatory post.....
The fact you think it's a derogatory post is pretty derogatory to the ride and handling engineers at Lotus.

[/promotingharmonyandeveryonejustgettingalong]
For a road based ride/handling compromise they are peerless, but it doesn't mean they use the best dampers they want (budget constraints), that the dampers can't be improved, or that if an owner wants to compromise ride in order to be faster around a track, that non-factory stuff won't be an improvement.

For what it's worth I enjoyed my Elise on track with original Konis though.
My sincere appologies if you considered my comment to be derogatory - no offence to anyone was intended.

I've certainly upgraded components on my car in the past...and then wish I hadn't. I thought that was the tone of the original article.

Sexual Chocolate

1,583 posts

143 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
I'd go for a decent geo. No need to go for a 340R Track setup, its quite aggressive and your new tyres will soon disappear. 340R Road setup is good enough for most people.

FWDRacer

3,564 posts

223 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
Brands Indy track is quicker than ever. 59 secs is do-able in a 1000cc Mini wink just...

Edited by FWDRacer on Thursday 28th June 15:35

Cotic

469 posts

151 months

Thursday 28th June 2012
quotequote all
FWDRacer said:
Brands Indy track is quicker than ever. 59 secs is do-able in a 100cc Mini wink just...
Two Honda C90 engines?