RE: PH Blog: Why US muscle still rules - for now
Discussion
aeropilot said:
V8 FOU said:
These are sooo cool....
Live axles etc. So why do people get dewey eyed about Mk2 Escorts, but dislike these?
Because they fundamentally ignore the reason why Ford still put a live axle under the 'stang.... because most buyers still want it.Live axles etc. So why do people get dewey eyed about Mk2 Escorts, but dislike these?
Drag racing is king in the US, not windy-roady-handling stuff, and a mega strong live axle is still the king when it comes to drag strip action. You only have to look at the product listings from Strange, Currie etc.
AG
Adeyb said:
RHD to LHD - its no big deal, you're only 3 feet away from where some say 'you should be', I jump all day long from my corvette to my boring thing and don't notice the difference in driving position (apart from the fun that is)
Absolutely. In the same day I've driven RHD & LHD in the UK, and RHD & LHD in Europe. Both manual and auto. I don't understand peoples problem with sitting on the other side.Aids0G said:
aeropilot said:
V8 FOU said:
These are sooo cool....
Live axles etc. So why do people get dewey eyed about Mk2 Escorts, but dislike these?
Because they fundamentally ignore the reason why Ford still put a live axle under the 'stang.... because most buyers still want it.Live axles etc. So why do people get dewey eyed about Mk2 Escorts, but dislike these?
Drag racing is king in the US, not windy-roady-handling stuff, and a mega strong live axle is still the king when it comes to drag strip action. You only have to look at the product listings from Strange, Currie etc.
Fartgalen said:
Adeyb said:
RHD to LHD - its no big deal, you're only 3 feet away from where some say 'you should be', I jump all day long from my corvette to my boring thing and don't notice the difference in driving position (apart from the fun that is)
Absolutely. In the same day I've driven RHD & LHD in the UK, and RHD & LHD in Europe. Both manual and auto. I don't understand peoples problem with sitting on the other side.swerni said:
masermartin said:
I couldn't agree more with your Nurburgring comment Chris - posting a time around a race track like the 'ring is completely missing the point of these cars.
But... but... did you say £35k?
closer to £60k than £35kBut... but... did you say £35k?
It may be $56k in the US, but once you add in Import tax, shipping, VAT and conversion its going to be circa £ for $
Comments like this are utterly misleading and completely wrong
In the US a new ZL1 is $54,095 - just under £35k, and when I looked at importing a car last year the costs added up to about 30%, so you could import a ZL1 today for a total cost of less than £45k.
ljgand said:
swerni said:
masermartin said:
I couldn't agree more with your Nurburgring comment Chris - posting a time around a race track like the 'ring is completely missing the point of these cars.
But... but... did you say £35k?
closer to £60k than £35kBut... but... did you say £35k?
It may be $56k in the US, but once you add in Import tax, shipping, VAT and conversion its going to be circa £ for $
Comments like this are utterly misleading and completely wrong
In the US a new ZL1 is $54,095 - just under £35k, and when I looked at importing a car last year the costs added up to about 30%, so you could import a ZL1 today for a total cost of less than £45k.
It wasn't too good to be true in 2005 when we were getting over 2 dollars to the £ and Gordon later gave us a 15% VAT holiday. That enabled the sharper of our number to get hold of these cars for bargain prices.
They're not perfect, for sure, but they are such a refreshing antidote to all things utterly competent and yet blatantly banal. The bargains were widely advertised too - Autocar imported one and ran it. EVO imported one and ran it. They may have ultimately failed the "not so much a scalpel as a Stanley Knife" test butwhen did a Stanley Knife ever fail to achieve the appropriate incision?
We had all the mockings of Clarkson over the live axle but even he had to give a nod of respect to a supercharged Roush while pointing out the obvious - that the way heavier GT500 with an iron block engine didn't handle as well. It also pulled a respectable 1:28 out of the TG track and not even pitting it against a supercharged Exige on semi-slicks could make it look like it truly lost.
The fact is that the 2005 Mustang changed the game a bit and actually dished up a car that steered well and provided a handy 300 horses (not that that was new as Ford and Chevy had been offering 305-325hp since the 90s. Yet they managed to retain that character and the fun aspect carefully laundered out of most modern cars by excessive competence which was supplanted by gadgets and slightly plusher interiors as the new entertainment.
The standard car lacked much by way of suspension control but new suspension kits are sold by the bucketload and knockdown prices in the US. I paid $550 plus duties for 4 adjustable dampers and £205 for Roush springs and the addition of a supercharger netter a "mere" 460hp which as any PH'er will know is barely adequate to pass muster these days.
It's a shame that the dollar got stronger and it's a shame we all got busted with 10% import duty and 20% VAT on top of that as it deprives us of the latest and possibly greatest of the breed.
However, you can't put a price on exclusivity and nothing ever comes close to matching the road presence of these cars in the UK, they are blue collar heroes for the working man in theory and never get anything but positive responses, even 7 years after I bought mine. I think if they were common, that would spoil it a bit so I'm happy to live with themyths and prejudices people harbour about these cars.
Whether the big horsepower continues or not, I think these are the last of the breed. For too long, Ford have been referencing the BMW M3 which, fortunately, has been getting bigger and bigger but I think the next gen, apart from IRS, will be downscaled and Europeanised for a global market and that is what will not so much ruin it as homogenise it....so yes, ruin it.
They're not perfect, for sure, but they are such a refreshing antidote to all things utterly competent and yet blatantly banal. The bargains were widely advertised too - Autocar imported one and ran it. EVO imported one and ran it. They may have ultimately failed the "not so much a scalpel as a Stanley Knife" test butwhen did a Stanley Knife ever fail to achieve the appropriate incision?
We had all the mockings of Clarkson over the live axle but even he had to give a nod of respect to a supercharged Roush while pointing out the obvious - that the way heavier GT500 with an iron block engine didn't handle as well. It also pulled a respectable 1:28 out of the TG track and not even pitting it against a supercharged Exige on semi-slicks could make it look like it truly lost.
The fact is that the 2005 Mustang changed the game a bit and actually dished up a car that steered well and provided a handy 300 horses (not that that was new as Ford and Chevy had been offering 305-325hp since the 90s. Yet they managed to retain that character and the fun aspect carefully laundered out of most modern cars by excessive competence which was supplanted by gadgets and slightly plusher interiors as the new entertainment.
The standard car lacked much by way of suspension control but new suspension kits are sold by the bucketload and knockdown prices in the US. I paid $550 plus duties for 4 adjustable dampers and £205 for Roush springs and the addition of a supercharger netter a "mere" 460hp which as any PH'er will know is barely adequate to pass muster these days.
It's a shame that the dollar got stronger and it's a shame we all got busted with 10% import duty and 20% VAT on top of that as it deprives us of the latest and possibly greatest of the breed.
However, you can't put a price on exclusivity and nothing ever comes close to matching the road presence of these cars in the UK, they are blue collar heroes for the working man in theory and never get anything but positive responses, even 7 years after I bought mine. I think if they were common, that would spoil it a bit so I'm happy to live with themyths and prejudices people harbour about these cars.
Whether the big horsepower continues or not, I think these are the last of the breed. For too long, Ford have been referencing the BMW M3 which, fortunately, has been getting bigger and bigger but I think the next gen, apart from IRS, will be downscaled and Europeanised for a global market and that is what will not so much ruin it as homogenise it....so yes, ruin it.
Gadgeroonie said:
i would like to see the claimed horsepower proven on an engine dyno
American horsepower is recognised as 15 to 20% higher than what we get here in the UK
They dyno test cars ad infinitum in the US and some dynos give higher readings than others - but ultimately all a dyno gives is what you want to see, it's an estimate/calculation. What they use dynos for in the US, mainly, is to dyno two cars back to back on the same day in the same conditions - biggest number wins.American horsepower is recognised as 15 to 20% higher than what we get here in the UK
However, you can estimate bhp by back-calculating the quarter mile figures vs weight and in general the US claims have tended to be on the conservative side. Why? Because back in 1999 Ford claimed 305hp for the Cobra and were publicly humiliated when the dynos proved they didn't have 305hp. Cue one huge recall to remedy the power deficit.
They also have far more legislative and legal comeback from class actions which would severely punish any manufacturer who didn't make what they claimed and they have a "lemon law" under which cars can be rejected.
Besides which, if you're going to claim the most powerful production V8 in the world, you'd be pretty dumb not to make that a slightly conservative claim. To punch a Mustang through the air at 200mph would take every one of the horses they claim too.
Edited by LuS1fer on Tuesday 3rd July 23:26
If you want to sample what has to be the best in American Muscle then pop along top the Surrey meet of CCCUK this Wednesday night, 4th of July at Silvermere in Surrey.
For more info see: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
For more info see: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Ozzie Osmond said:
I understand Americans are similarly convinced that a typical English penis is 15% to 20% smaller...
Americans have never given that much thought.We've always known that English males all had vaginas, and inseminated their females with a popsicle stick with monkey semen on it.
Cheers.
re: LHD in the UK, what about when you make right turns?
Living in the US, if there's a truck in front of you facing you making a left and you're making a left going the other direction, sometimes its damn hard to see if traffic is coming sitting on the LEFT of the car let alone if you were in a RHD car and were seated on the right!
I understand that the UK has more roundabouts than 4-way traffic lights and so oppositeHD there is likely not as big an issue as it is over here but surely it must come up sometimes?
Oh, and I do adore the Mustang and its a much much better car than the Camaro (tho i'm waiting to see what it says in the inevitable MT, RT, CD comparos), but the Camaro ZL1 in black with black rims is just so badass - a nonpetrolhead friend saw a pic in that spec and said "oh my god it looks like the f*cking Batmobile!"
Living in the US, if there's a truck in front of you facing you making a left and you're making a left going the other direction, sometimes its damn hard to see if traffic is coming sitting on the LEFT of the car let alone if you were in a RHD car and were seated on the right!
I understand that the UK has more roundabouts than 4-way traffic lights and so oppositeHD there is likely not as big an issue as it is over here but surely it must come up sometimes?
Oh, and I do adore the Mustang and its a much much better car than the Camaro (tho i'm waiting to see what it says in the inevitable MT, RT, CD comparos), but the Camaro ZL1 in black with black rims is just so badass - a nonpetrolhead friend saw a pic in that spec and said "oh my god it looks like the f*cking Batmobile!"
Gadgeroonie said:
i would like to see the claimed horsepower proven on an engine dyno
American horsepower is recognised as 15 to 20% higher than what we get here in the UK
Watch this from 0:50:American horsepower is recognised as 15 to 20% higher than what we get here in the UK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml0lG4sMTJU&fea...
601 rwhp, SAE measured.
Given the fact that 100 hp SAE = 95 hp DIN (which we use), that's still 570-ish at the wheels.
Using the "normal" 15% drivetrain loss, it's still around 650HP DIN rated.
Given that the dyno is reading correct of course...
In the end, let's be honest, how many times will each of us put those ponies down during normal street driving?
BlackPrince said:
re: LHD in the UK, what about when you make right turns?
Living in the US, if there's a truck in front of you facing you making a left and you're making a left going the other direction, sometimes its damn hard to see if traffic is coming sitting on the LEFT of the car let alone if you were in a RHD car and were seated on the right!
So left hand turn for both cars, facing each other, driving on the right side of the road? Out of daily experience I can tell you that it's actually easier to see oncoming traffic in a RHD car Living in the US, if there's a truck in front of you facing you making a left and you're making a left going the other direction, sometimes its damn hard to see if traffic is coming sitting on the LEFT of the car let alone if you were in a RHD car and were seated on the right!
I also agree that the article is misleading they aren’t £35k cars they are $55k + cars, to bring one into the UK you are looking at £55k plus by the time it is registered in the UK, afaik you can’t claim the tax back either.
RHD conversions can be had on these cars, but as I was told over three years ago when I was looking at purchasing a Mustang (more to satisfy my dad’s want for me not to get a LHD car than my own) “I wouldn’t wish one on my worst enemy” was one response I got. And after having been to several American car shows and cruise/drive in’s around the country and seen one or two RHD Mustangs I will say exactly the same. The panel fit it shocking and they look truly dreadful for something done by a professional outfit and something you can pay over £8000 for. It also devalues the car, pay £8000 for a RHD conversion, loose that money straight away and knock a few ££££ of the sell on price if you ever get rid. The simple reason is that purist American car buyers in the UK don’t want a RHD American car, it defeats the object of owning one.
Remember the RHD converted lighting pickup truck that JC reviewed!!! Utterly horrendous in side, in stock LHD form they are far better, cheap scratchy plastics but at least everything fits properly.
In three years I have never had a problem with LHD and have never once thought “I wish it was RHD”
The strength thing with the SRA isn’t in the differential (quite rightly stated they aren’t much if any stronger than a diff in a typical high power IRS equipped RWD car) but what it does reduce is any flex in the rear end. On the drag strip you want both rear wheels to stay in exactly the same geometry, there is always going to be some fore/aft flex for instance on an IRS setup due to the bushings, SRA minimise the effects of things like this.
It also reduces the complexity of the rear end, it is much easier to adjust the instant centre on a SRA than an IRS setup with some basic tools and axle stands.
RHD conversions can be had on these cars, but as I was told over three years ago when I was looking at purchasing a Mustang (more to satisfy my dad’s want for me not to get a LHD car than my own) “I wouldn’t wish one on my worst enemy” was one response I got. And after having been to several American car shows and cruise/drive in’s around the country and seen one or two RHD Mustangs I will say exactly the same. The panel fit it shocking and they look truly dreadful for something done by a professional outfit and something you can pay over £8000 for. It also devalues the car, pay £8000 for a RHD conversion, loose that money straight away and knock a few ££££ of the sell on price if you ever get rid. The simple reason is that purist American car buyers in the UK don’t want a RHD American car, it defeats the object of owning one.
Remember the RHD converted lighting pickup truck that JC reviewed!!! Utterly horrendous in side, in stock LHD form they are far better, cheap scratchy plastics but at least everything fits properly.
In three years I have never had a problem with LHD and have never once thought “I wish it was RHD”
The strength thing with the SRA isn’t in the differential (quite rightly stated they aren’t much if any stronger than a diff in a typical high power IRS equipped RWD car) but what it does reduce is any flex in the rear end. On the drag strip you want both rear wheels to stay in exactly the same geometry, there is always going to be some fore/aft flex for instance on an IRS setup due to the bushings, SRA minimise the effects of things like this.
It also reduces the complexity of the rear end, it is much easier to adjust the instant centre on a SRA than an IRS setup with some basic tools and axle stands.
ljgand said:
A brand new top of the range 6.2 426 bhp Camaro can currently be bought for £31,292 in the UK.
In the US a new ZL1 is $54,095 - just under £35k, and when I looked at importing a car last year the costs added up to about 30%, so you could import a ZL1 today for a total cost of less than £45k.
Got a quote from Newport Imports a couple of weeks ago, the v8 Camaro starts at £40000 with the v6 starting at £28000In the US a new ZL1 is $54,095 - just under £35k, and when I looked at importing a car last year the costs added up to about 30%, so you could import a ZL1 today for a total cost of less than £45k.
BlackPrince said:
re: LHD in the UK, what about when you make right turns?
Living in the US, if there's a truck in front of you facing you making a left and you're making a left going the other direction, sometimes its damn hard to see if traffic is coming sitting on the LEFT of the car let alone if you were in a RHD car and were seated on the right!
I understand that the UK has more roundabouts than 4-way traffic lights and so oppositeHD there is likely not as big an issue as it is over here but surely it must come up sometimes?
Most lights have green filter arrows to permit traffic to turn when the main traffic flow remains on red. As for junctions where that is not the case, it's called patience.Living in the US, if there's a truck in front of you facing you making a left and you're making a left going the other direction, sometimes its damn hard to see if traffic is coming sitting on the LEFT of the car let alone if you were in a RHD car and were seated on the right!
I understand that the UK has more roundabouts than 4-way traffic lights and so oppositeHD there is likely not as big an issue as it is over here but surely it must come up sometimes?
We don't have the 4 way free-for-all junctions like the US which is why UK tourists sit at them forever not undersatnding who has priority before planting the throttle.
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