RE: Chris Harris video: Camaro ZL1 vs Mustang GT500

[willisit]

Mark Smith said:

I'm over in Canada on holiday and there's loads of new muscle cars on the roads here. They all look awesome and sound amazing. The rumble from the exhausts of the V8 engines is pure music. There's a lot of the originals still around as well and they look every bit as stunning now as when they were new. I'd love to have one of each model from Ford, Dodge, Chevrolet , Pontiac and use them all. They are just stunning.

I just got back from Vancouver and echo those thoughts.

Interestingly, I saw half a dozen e-types, and series 1 Camaros/Mustangs out there.. in the rain. They just LOVE using their classics. I really have to tip my hat to them on that.

Beyond that, every other car was an E92 M3, 997 Turbo.. or Mustang. I really LOVE the place!

I'm still all over the Camaro - but something I really don't like - the UK car. Just seems such an afterthought (and it is.. obviously).

[Pvapour]

great review, really enjoyed watching that, Camaro for me, a few easy adjustments & you're at the power of the mustang anyway.

thanks!

[300bhp/ton]

BlackPrince said:

I'm not going to comment on his comparisons to old Fords and such as it seems a bit exaggerated to me, but his comment about European Fords v. American ones is spot on.

And 300hp/ton, the new Mustang has the aluminium dash something I don't think the 05 had (I assume the one in your pic is just painted plastic).

That said, I'm not sure it matters. I used to be a stickler for interior quality and hated American cars for their absolutely shocking lack of detail in their interiors. Then I drove the 2003 Mustang GT (the first one with the 60s-looking rims) and I loved it so much that the horrible plastics and weird seating position didn't matter at all!

I think it is plastic. But with interior design there are in my opinion more than what's made of.

- you've got the visual impact and style. Forget what it's made from, how does it actually look? In this respect I like the Mustang's interior and the original s197's especially. Where as you can get some 'high end' interiors which just look plain boring and dull.

- Then yes you have the actual tactile feel and quality of components used.

Personally I'd rather have something that looks nice, even if it's made cheaper than the other way round.


That said, I still don't see how the interiors on any of the cited American cars are any worse than most coveted cars here in the UK. Ford Focus RS, MINI JCW, Evo X, Impreza STI, RX-8, 350z type of thing.

In fact I've even got an e46 BMW sat outside the house right now. Ok I quite like the interior of this one, light with wood. But if you look there's still plenty of plastic in there.

[LuS1fer]

BlackPrince said:

but his comment about European Fords v. American ones is spot on.

And 300hp/ton, the new Mustang has the aluminium dash something I don't think the 05 had (I assume the one in your pic is just painted plastic).

I have a 2005 Mustang as pictured and the dash is all aluminium. Some variants didn't have it, you had to specify an interior upgrade but that's good because it meant you could have the V8 for even less.

As for US vs European Ford - we also have a 2009 Mondeo Edge - base spec I'll grant you but the Mustang interior beats it hands down. It's also far less durable.

I think people confuse "luxury" with "quality". Quality is a car that still looks good after 7 years and dooesn't squeak and rattle, luxury is all the soft touch nonsense of no real consequence.

However, just as with the exterior, you can buy a whole shedload of stuff for the interior to lift it such as the various knobs, inserts and leather I have in mine (not as bright as this in real life...)

[Monty Zoomer]

I really can't see why people are comparing BMWs to these cars.

What sort of person would buy a disposable German stbox with Fairy Face lights and brum-brum noises coming through the loudspeakers when they could choose between two timeless modern day classics that are better in every way? They're even available in colour.

[The Horse Man]

So, i am going to say it; Bumblebee.

Want.

[willisit]

Neither Ford, nor GM can win on the design/quality side of things. Why? Because they asked the public what the interiors should look and feel like.. and the results are in the cars. There were conversations and test meets where the likes of GM got Joe Nobody in the cars and said "is this good enough?"... remembering also that these cars HAD to meet a price point to sell... the Camaro in particular could not intrude too much on the Corvette market (and it hasn't).

The Camaro, alone, pretty much saved GM. It has been a HUGE seller in the US. I love it. I really don't care about the downsides - it does everything it's meant to, well. That's all it was ever going to do.

[Skidsareforkids]

I just don't know... A guy I know here in town got a ZL1 about a month ago (in black) and it's pretty nice, sounds great and goes like st off a shovel, but there are so many Camaros around these days, and so little to differentiate this one from the lesser models (especially in black). That kind of bothers me... I'd prefer the GT500 I think a I appreciate the drama... Also, it will be interesting to see what Chrystler do with the Challenger and Charger when they start putting factory supercharges in for the next model year.

[PascalBuyens]

willisit said:

That's the badger. I'd still take the ZL1 but I like the idea of a charged v8.

I've watched a few vids including Monkey's and the concencous is that the Camaro is the better car (especially concerning brakes) it just lacks silly power figure (in itself a crazy notion).

Tempted by a 2013 model with touchscreen and rear camera....

I went for a 2011 model, as I wasn't keen on the new steering wheel (just doesn't do it justice IMO).

Have to admit, I never drove a normally aspirated Camaro though, as I opted for SLP's ZL585... just over 600hp out of the box

[300bhp/ton]

Sure some of you guys will have watched these already, but a review and track times for the Camaro and Mustang:

Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca! - Head 2 Head
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE4AH4DZtEI

Ford Shelby GT500 vs Chevrolet Camaro ZL1! - Head 2 Head
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF-db7bX9LI&lis...

[Matt Harper]

willisit said:

Neither Ford, nor GM can win on the design/quality side of things. Why? Because they asked the public what the interiors should look and feel like.. and the results are in the cars. There were conversations and test meets where the likes of GM got Joe Nobody in the cars and said "is this good enough?"... remembering also that these cars HAD to meet a price point to sell... the Camaro in particular could not intrude too much on the Corvette market (and it hasn't).

The Camaro, alone, pretty much saved GM. It has been a HUGE seller in the US. I love it. I really don't care about the downsides - it does everything it's meant to, well. That's all it was ever going to do.

I work in qualitative market research in the US and have significant familiarity with product development at GM and Ford. What you have stated here is not representative of reality.
All mainstream manufacturers run 'car-clinics' that are designed to gauge reaction to systems/useability/comfort/aesthetics - and invariably involve consumers - so you got that bit right. The rest of your post is inaccurate to say the least.
As an aside GM's military contracts - and the US taxpayer saved GM - not the Camaro.

Edited by Matt Harper on Friday 6th July 17:17

[chilled901]

Did the car test by Chris have the adjustable bilstein suspension setup? If so, was it modified on the road/ track to see what worked best and then review it or was it kept at what was given from the factory?

[Matt Harper]

willisit said:

300bhp/ton said:

I haven't seen (well ok I haven't looked either). But what sort of marketing are they doing? Also when they say track in America they sometimes mean drag strip, not circuit.

I followed the development and they use forums such as camaro5.com quite a bit. With the original SS it was all about the design and the street - this time, the 'ring. All initial reviews and press use was track-only - I think mainly because of the suspension rather than trying to push it's drag strip times (it's a heavy car).

Marketing wise, in the US I saw very little - mainly the usual picture of it against a nondescript backdrop doing very little.

The current GM six part, eight consecutive page Chevrolet Technology Series campaign, featuring ZR-1, ZL-1 (4 pages) and Sonic, which is in almost every US mainstream automotive monthly/weekly and costing the company something like $4m is reasonably high profile....

[daz4m]

Nice video, would love either.

[anonymous-user]

willisit said:

The Camaro, alone, pretty much saved GM.

nothing to do with $25bn from tarp then?

love these vids. someone give this man a tv show

Edited by fbrs on Friday 6th July 18:29

[After_Shock]

ZL1 for me everytime, looks a fantastic cruiser/gt car which can be a bit bonkers if you want it to be!

[dvs_dave]

Matt Harper said:

willisit said:

Neither Ford, nor GM can win on the design/quality side of things. Why? Because they asked the public what the interiors should look and feel like.. and the results are in the cars. There were conversations and test meets where the likes of GM got Joe Nobody in the cars and said "is this good enough?"... remembering also that these cars HAD to meet a price point to sell... the Camaro in particular could not intrude too much on the Corvette market (and it hasn't).

The Camaro, alone, pretty much saved GM. It has been a HUGE seller in the US. I love it. I really don't care about the downsides - it does everything it's meant to, well. That's all it was ever going to do.

I work in qualitative market research in the US and have significant familiarity with product development at GM and Ford. What you have stated here is not representative of reality.
All mainstream manufacturers run 'car-clinics' that are designed to gauge reaction to systems/useability/comfort/aesthetics - and invariably involve consumers - so you got that bit right. The rest of your post is inaccurate to say the least.
As an aside GM's military contracts - and the US taxpayer saved GM - not the Camaro.

Edited by Matt Harper on Friday 6th July 17:17

Look were focus groups got GM in the past.


Seriously though the Camaro probably cost GM sod all to develop given that it's essentially a re-bodied Holden Commodore/Pontiac G8/Vauxhall VXR8/Chevy Caprice and whatever else the same platform is used for. And it has to be said a bloody good platform it is too. GM ditching Pontiac, and specifically the G8 was madness as it's such a great car. Although I doubt they made any profit on it as there's no way the G8 made any money at the price point it was at in the US. Look how expensive they are in their native OZ for example.

Anyway, ZL1 for me. I'm not into drag racing and having sampled both (albeit lesser versions) the Camaro is a much more resolved package from my European tinted viewpoint. Some easy mods will see it pushing 700hp, but crucially it'll still be able to put it down once you've turned off the drag strip.

[Miguel]

Zad said:

What the Ford needs, is for Ford to get it's hands on it. Some of that Ford Europe chassis magic that made the Fiesta, Puma, Focus and Mondeo into really decent drivers cars. Mentioning US gas station fuel got me thinking, I wonder what BHP that pony engine could do on decent UK petrol.

Octane numbers used in most countries are RON, which yields a number 8-10 points higher than MON octane numbers. Gas in the US and Canada is measured in RON+MON/2. Therefore, the octane numbers in the US and Canada are 4-5 points lower than in most of the rest of the world. US gas rated at 93 octane is equivalent to 98 octane British petrol.

[Miguel]

I enjoyed the video. Chris Harris did great work, as usual, but a few things amused me:

1) In the US, he thought he should say Zee L 1 instead of Zed R 1, so why did he say Cam AHHHH ro?

2) He's a Brit talking to a largely British audience, filming a video about American musclecars in the US. While the power numbers he used are correct if converted to PS, why did he bother doing that and stating metric power figures?

3) I think there's a law that states that if a non-American talks or writes about American cars, he is obliged to say how incredibly heavy they are. When very powerful cars are involved, however, nowadays the lighter ones seem to be the American ones, as other PH'ers already stated.

[LuS1fer]

Not only lighter but bigger too. It's the American use of unobtanium and helium-filled panels that allow this, it's just a trick.