RE: Lotus: Dead weight lifted or dead man walking?
Discussion
I think Lotus' primary problem is simple - they don't have enough money to focus on everything and they choose to focus primarily on handling. Most sports-car buyers want a lovely interior with adequate handling, not lovely handling with an adequate interior, so they buy a Boxster.
They either need to follow the Porsche route and sacrifice the way their cars drive to make them more user-friendly/reliable/whatever; or they need to accept they're only going to sell in small volumes, IMO.
They either need to follow the Porsche route and sacrifice the way their cars drive to make them more user-friendly/reliable/whatever; or they need to accept they're only going to sell in small volumes, IMO.
f1ten said:
i just dont get it, why the sales are so low?
Captain Muppet said:
Ecosseven said:
That’s quite a drop in sales compared with last year. Perhaps the recession really is biting hard?
I read on Pistonheads that the production line stopped during the takeover. No cars = no sales.I think Lotus Cars needs to get back to basics and quickly.
Whether it likes it or not Lotus will always be associated with the 'to go faster just add lightness' principle. It's a bit like Fiat, everyone knows they do small cars very well and on that basis they're prepared to buy them. As soon as Fiat tries to make a 'big' or bigger car they invariably fail to sell.
It's the same with Lotus, it's an enthusiast's brand and, I hope, always will be. The problem is that as soon as you start asking much beyond, say, £30k and upwards for a sports car the enthusiasts start to get a bit thin on the ground and what I would refer to as 'fat businessman' syndrome takes over i.e buyers become more interested in straight line performance, pointless options, and most importantly impressing their friends at dinner parties with their latest purchase. So a £60k Lotus has to compete with the Porsche 911, Nissan GTR, even SUVs etc
In my view this is why cars such as the last Europa and the current Evora were always going to struggle and unfortunately have done so.
To an extent Ginetta is filling the void left by Lotus with their new models (effectively stripped out road legal racing cars).
Lotus needs to go back and fill this void while it still can (it has a greater depth of engineering clout to fall back on than the likes of Ginetta) and at the same time accept that it's never going to compete on volume/profitability with the likes of Ferrari.
If I was in charge of Lotus the first thing I would do would be to drop the price of the Elise by £5k and actually start marketing it again.
Whether it likes it or not Lotus will always be associated with the 'to go faster just add lightness' principle. It's a bit like Fiat, everyone knows they do small cars very well and on that basis they're prepared to buy them. As soon as Fiat tries to make a 'big' or bigger car they invariably fail to sell.
It's the same with Lotus, it's an enthusiast's brand and, I hope, always will be. The problem is that as soon as you start asking much beyond, say, £30k and upwards for a sports car the enthusiasts start to get a bit thin on the ground and what I would refer to as 'fat businessman' syndrome takes over i.e buyers become more interested in straight line performance, pointless options, and most importantly impressing their friends at dinner parties with their latest purchase. So a £60k Lotus has to compete with the Porsche 911, Nissan GTR, even SUVs etc
In my view this is why cars such as the last Europa and the current Evora were always going to struggle and unfortunately have done so.
To an extent Ginetta is filling the void left by Lotus with their new models (effectively stripped out road legal racing cars).
Lotus needs to go back and fill this void while it still can (it has a greater depth of engineering clout to fall back on than the likes of Ginetta) and at the same time accept that it's never going to compete on volume/profitability with the likes of Ferrari.
If I was in charge of Lotus the first thing I would do would be to drop the price of the Elise by £5k and actually start marketing it again.
I have my concerns that this could be bad for Lotus. DB took the company into a radically different direction, and now it has to return to what it was pre-DB, carry on with the DB method, or find a compromise somewhere in between.
It's a brave move to ask on here. I expect views will very divided in no time.
It's a brave move to ask on here. I expect views will very divided in no time.
Sales are low because everyone was panicking about that moron Bahahahar and his PR sideshow. Get back to making decent cars, and they will come.
I for one am MUCH more likely to buy a car from them now that joker has gone. Sadly I'm not financially in a position to do so now, but if I were, I'd be relieved.
I for one am MUCH more likely to buy a car from them now that joker has gone. Sadly I'm not financially in a position to do so now, but if I were, I'd be relieved.
FactoryRSVR said:
Maybe this also shows that years of motoring journos saying their products are great equally doesn't translate into sales. It would seem that car customers are smarter than the people that write about them.
"Every Loser Wins" by Nick Berry was the best selling single of 1986. kambites said:
I think Lotus' primary problem is simple - they don't have enough money to focus on everything and they choose to focus primarily on handling. Most sports-car buyers want a lovely interior with adequate handling, not lovely handling with an adequate interior, so they buy a Boxster.
They either need to follow the Porsche route and sacrifice the way their cars drive to make them more user-friendly/reliable/whatever; or they need to accept they're only going to sell in small volumes, IMO.
I can see what you are saying Kam but i think calling the Boxster's handling "adequate" is a little unfair TBH.They either need to follow the Porsche route and sacrifice the way their cars drive to make them more user-friendly/reliable/whatever; or they need to accept they're only going to sell in small volumes, IMO.
The gap between the handling of the Lotus and the Porsche is much closer than the gap in build quality/interior design etc. between the 2 and as most drivers are only ever going to drive at 5/10ths it's probably not noticeable at all.
Things are looking up post DB? What are you on??!! He's only been gone a few weeks. Everything you think is contributing to things looking up is because of him!
The range extender car is only a showcase for the tech. They're not making one.
Sales are low due to changes at the factory (building a new one) and issues with money due to the 3 month suspension during DD. Last I heard there were plenty of orders with the Exige V6 rolling out to customers in a couple of weeks.
DRB are working on cost efficiencies at the moment but you can't expect an 'instant fix'. Well you can....in fact everyone else does so why not
The range extender car is only a showcase for the tech. They're not making one.
Sales are low due to changes at the factory (building a new one) and issues with money due to the 3 month suspension during DD. Last I heard there were plenty of orders with the Exige V6 rolling out to customers in a couple of weeks.
DRB are working on cost efficiencies at the moment but you can't expect an 'instant fix'. Well you can....in fact everyone else does so why not
kambites said:
I think Lotus' primary problem is simple - they don't have enough money to focus on everything and they choose to focus primarily on handling. Most sports-car buyers want a lovely interior with adequate handling, not lovely handling with an adequate interior, so they buy a Boxster.
They either need to follow the Porsche route and sacrifice the way their cars drive to make them more user-friendly/reliable/whatever; or they need to accept they're only going to sell in small volumes, IMO.
And personally I think that if they do try to go the Porsche route they will struggle to find a compelling reason why people shouldn't just buy the Porsche. They either need to follow the Porsche route and sacrifice the way their cars drive to make them more user-friendly/reliable/whatever; or they need to accept they're only going to sell in small volumes, IMO.
Honda did something similar with the most recent incarnation of the Civic Type-R - most people want a comfortable all rounder like a Golf, let's make the new Type-R more like a Golf. Unfortunately, the people who had been buying Golfs contined buying Golfs, and the people who used to buy Type-Rs went off and bought RenaultSports.
Dont have a problem with the cars, in actual fact I have been considering an Evora, but the simple fact is I dont want to buy a car from a potentially dying company. Its this uncertainty that will hold back potential buyers.
Silence from Hicom and a lack of sentiment from the market will kill Lotus as dead as a dead thing.
What Lotus need (very quickly) is a clear and insightful business plan, combined with a commitment to deliver funding from Hicom. If thats not forthcoming as far as Im concerned Lotus is already consigned to the Saab, TVR, etc history books.
Silence from Hicom and a lack of sentiment from the market will kill Lotus as dead as a dead thing.
What Lotus need (very quickly) is a clear and insightful business plan, combined with a commitment to deliver funding from Hicom. If thats not forthcoming as far as Im concerned Lotus is already consigned to the Saab, TVR, etc history books.
Don't know really - although it's much improved in recent years Porsche is not the first thing I think of when someone says 'lovely interiors' - unless you spend massively on 'options' which takes the cars into a completley different stratosphere price-wise, and I found little to argue with on the early Evora with 'premium pack' that I was kindly lent for a week - every dashboard and door panel surface covered in good quality (by today's standard' leather, some genuine alloy in the centre console instead of silver painted plastic, clear instrumentation, lovely and upmarket feeling seats.
Up until the newest models (which look to be more like the Panamera I drove), Porsche interiors of non-specced up models IMO are on a similar level as my MINI (which is a £12-25K car) - nice and tight build, quiality switchgear, feels solid etc. but obviously mass-produced with uncovered plastic mouldings and faux metal surfaces the order of the day... Nowadays I feel Lotus' problem is more pricing than anything else - what was the basic (& by the sounds of it, best) Boxster again, £37K?
Up until the newest models (which look to be more like the Panamera I drove), Porsche interiors of non-specced up models IMO are on a similar level as my MINI (which is a £12-25K car) - nice and tight build, quiality switchgear, feels solid etc. but obviously mass-produced with uncovered plastic mouldings and faux metal surfaces the order of the day... Nowadays I feel Lotus' problem is more pricing than anything else - what was the basic (& by the sounds of it, best) Boxster again, £37K?
You can't expect the effect of Bahar's shenanigans to disappear the moment he does. There will be a delay before people become reassured that Lotus is here to stay. I think the excellent lineup of road cars they currently have really sells the company well. That plus racing success proves that they can, as a bottom line, do what they're meant to. I'm sure the only reason people aren't buying them is because all the press has been "What's going on at Lotus" for the past year or so. Give it another year and if they're still here, things will be on the up.
vimfuegoturbo said:
I think Lotus Cars needs to get back to basics and quickly.
~~
To an extent Ginetta is filling the void left by Lotus with their new models (effectively stripped out road legal racing cars).
Lotus needs to go back and fill this void while it still can (it has a greater depth of engineering clout to fall back on than the likes of Ginetta) and at the same time accept that it's never going to compete on volume/profitability with the likes of Ferrari.
If I was in charge of Lotus the first thing I would do would be to drop the price of the Elise by £5k and actually start marketing it again.
The problem here is that Lotus has lost the moral claim to being Britain's plucky little sporscar maker when it tried to sell out to the Audi/Lambo/Aston/Ferrari way of doing things under Bahar.~~
To an extent Ginetta is filling the void left by Lotus with their new models (effectively stripped out road legal racing cars).
Lotus needs to go back and fill this void while it still can (it has a greater depth of engineering clout to fall back on than the likes of Ginetta) and at the same time accept that it's never going to compete on volume/profitability with the likes of Ferrari.
If I was in charge of Lotus the first thing I would do would be to drop the price of the Elise by £5k and actually start marketing it again.
Even as an enthusiast, who loves Lotus and its products, (though I would prefer it if they made them sized better for those of us who carry our own success ballast) I would rather see Ginetta doing what it is doing and Lotus on the scrap heap of history than the other way around. Its about a British company bringing in the money for British workforce and British business, rather than a British company bringing it in for a british workforce and its Malaysian owners.
Ginetta is the new Lotus. It is bringing on the young racing drivers, it is producing a few good-enough road cars to fund it's racing and it is doing it well. Lotus need to find a new model, go for the big time or throw in the towel.
Biggriff said:
Dont have a problem with the cars, in actual fact I have been considering an Evora, but the simple fact is I dont want to buy a car from a potentially dying company. Its this uncertainty that will hold back potential buyers.
I don't think thats the only reason. Sit inside an Evora and sit inside a Porsche and I certainly think the Porsche is the nicer place to sit and I'm guesisng that others will aggree. I do hope Lotus surveve and I am quite interested in the plug in hybrid. The hybrid porsche is creating a lot of interest, so I don't see whty the Evora shouldn't do the same
nsmith1180 said:
The problem here is that Lotus has lost the moral claim to being Britain's plucky little sporscar maker when it tried to sell out to the Audi/Lambo/Aston/Ferrari way of doing things under Bahar.
Even as an enthusiast, who loves Lotus and its products, (though I would prefer it if they made them sized better for those of us who carry our own success ballast) I would rather see Ginetta doing what it is doing and Lotus on the scrap heap of history than the other way around. Its about a British company bringing in the money for British workforce and British business, rather than a British company bringing it in for a british workforce and its Malaysian owners.
Ginetta is the new Lotus. It is bringing on the young racing drivers, it is producing a few good-enough road cars to fund it's racing and it is doing it well. Lotus need to find a new model, go for the big time or throw in the towel.
Small budget sports cars don't make money. If you want Ginetta to follow Lotus' old model then you are saying that you want them to go under. Lotus have to step up to the marketplace or step out almost completely. They choose to step up and, with the help of financiers, are doing it. it was never going to be an easy route but they're on their way. Even as an enthusiast, who loves Lotus and its products, (though I would prefer it if they made them sized better for those of us who carry our own success ballast) I would rather see Ginetta doing what it is doing and Lotus on the scrap heap of history than the other way around. Its about a British company bringing in the money for British workforce and British business, rather than a British company bringing it in for a british workforce and its Malaysian owners.
Ginetta is the new Lotus. It is bringing on the young racing drivers, it is producing a few good-enough road cars to fund it's racing and it is doing it well. Lotus need to find a new model, go for the big time or throw in the towel.
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