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GravelBen
10,029 posts
99 months
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Bladedancer said: Plus american V8s are long lives as they are not stressed at all - 150 or 200 bhp from 5 liters or so.  Are you stuck in the 1970s or something? Even in the F150 (ie presumably tuned for low down torque rather than power) the current Ford US 5.0 V8 makes 360hp.
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PanzerCommander
2,703 posts
87 months
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GravelBen said: Bladedancer said: Plus american V8s are long lives as they are not stressed at all - 150 or 200 bhp from 5 liters or so. Are you stuck in the 1970s or something? Even in the F150 (ie presumably tuned for low down torque rather than power) the current Ford US 5.0 V8 makes 360hp. Must be, most bog standard 5.7 litre LS1 crate engines are 350bhp plus with a similar/larger number of lbft of torque to back it up. There are a few oddities that have low power (the mentioned 150-200bhp out of a 5 litre) because it is cheaper to bung a big de-tuned V8/V6 in there than develop a smaller 4 cylinder engine. It also reduces servicing costs and through life spares costs 
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jbi
5,300 posts
73 months
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Bladedancer said: If a car rattle from new that doesn't bode well for reliability. Plus american V8s are long lives as they are not stressed at all - 150 or 200 bhp from 5 liters or so. 420hp from the current ford 5.0 in mustang form, 360hp in de-tuned f-150 form. Bladedancer said: Toytotas are used where climate is too hot to handle for other makes And from what you said militias prefer chinese stuff to US  The US has deserts. In fact the pickup truck is the vehicle of choice in the hot southern states. Particularly texas. Here is a comparo of the F-150 vs the toyota tundra showing the current problems with the Toyota's frame twisting and "bed bounce" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJZVUnOduH4Also... here is a video of libyans firing missiles from a yank truck (skip to 1:20) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGgEgM0qVDg&fea...Bladedancer said: Americans are doing well in China with likes of Buick, which is a quasi-premium make as far as local market is concerned. But hardly any of those I've seen have V8s in them.
In fact, if a prominent and wealthy Chinese individual buys a premium car, it's usually European (from what I've seen BMW 7 was very popular) Audi is the luxury best seller in China... not even BMW can touch them. But for overall volume GM is biggest seller in the country http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26c71f58-cb3c-11e1-b896-...Bladedancer said: I've seen american quality in form of Mustang, Cadillac CTS and Chrysler 300C and I'm not impressed at all. Compared to what exactly? Mustang compares very favourable with cars in it's price bracket, yet stomps them on the racetrack. Bladedancer said: And for the last - you've mentioned V6 - that's V6, not V8. That is why I said V8 is a niche product is EUAsia and you seem to validate my claim. There are no old school cheap american V8, RWD cars anymore. The crown vic was the last. Luxury, sports, pickups and SUV's yes... but the Japanese also sell these with V8's as standard or optional.
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300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
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Bladedancer said: I've seen american quality in form of Mustang, Cadillac CTS and Chrysler 300C and I'm not impressed at all. No what you are is being stupidly unrealistic I suspect.
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Pommygranite
4,161 posts
85 months
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300bhp/ton said: Bladedancer said: I've seen american quality in form of Mustang, Cadillac CTS and Chrysler 300C and I'm not impressed at all. No what you are is being stupidly unrealistic I suspect. Stupidly unrealistic about expecting quality from an American car?
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300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
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Pommygranite said: 300bhp/ton said: Bladedancer said: I've seen american quality in form of Mustang, Cadillac CTS and Chrysler 300C and I'm not impressed at all. No what you are is being stupidly unrealistic I suspect. Stupidly unrealistic about expecting quality from an American car? Odd I've never had any quality issues with any of my American cars. But what you'll find as a rule is people wanting to pay Mondeo money for BMW M3 performance and somehow expect a £70,000 interior 
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Bladedancer
394 posts
65 months
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300bhp/ton said: Pommygranite said: 300bhp/ton said: Bladedancer said: I've seen american quality in form of Mustang, Cadillac CTS and Chrysler 300C and I'm not impressed at all. No what you are is being stupidly unrealistic I suspect. Stupidly unrealistic about expecting quality from an American car? Odd I've never had any quality issues with any of my American cars. But what you'll find as a rule is people wanting to pay Mondeo money for BMW M3 performance and somehow expect a £70,000 interior I expect a car that doesn't feel like old Daewoo and doesn't come apart when you use it. Couple years ago I've been to London Motor show and looked at CTS (I like the way the look, old style boxy shape) and trim came apart while I adjusted the seat. Now, that CTS wasn't the most popular car on the show and the GTR that was there (which had a nice queue to it all day long) managed to stay in one piece somehow. I don't expect 70k interior, but I do expect something better than basic hard plastics.
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Bladedancer
394 posts
65 months
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PanzerCommander said: GravelBen said: Bladedancer said: Plus american V8s are long lives as they are not stressed at all - 150 or 200 bhp from 5 liters or so. Are you stuck in the 1970s or something? Even in the F150 (ie presumably tuned for low down torque rather than power) the current Ford US 5.0 V8 makes 360hp. Must be, most bog standard 5.7 litre LS1 crate engines are 350bhp plus with a similar/larger number of lbft of torque to back it up. There are a few oddities that have low power (the mentioned 150-200bhp out of a 5 litre) because it is cheaper to bung a big de-tuned V8/V6 in there than develop a smaller 4 cylinder engine. It also reduces servicing costs and through life spares costs And 350 bhp from almost 6 liters is a lot to you? I won't even mention the fact that you could get the same performance out of modern V6 diesel (albeit not the same reliability) As for sticking detuned V8/V6 - Americans might do that out of laziness, as mentioned, but isn't that becuase most R4 engines they've designer were a complete debacle? I do wonder how V8 reduces spares cost however. Oil should be changed round the same time and there's faaaar more of it in a V8 than in R4, and you have 8 plugs not 4 so... where's the saving?
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300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
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Bladedancer said: I expect a car that doesn't feel like old Daewoo and doesn't come apart when you use it.
Couple years ago I've been to London Motor show and looked at CTS (I like the way the look, old style boxy shape) and trim came apart while I adjusted the seat. Now, that CTS wasn't the most popular car on the show and the GTR that was there (which had a nice queue to it all day long) managed to stay in one piece somehow.
I don't expect 70k interior, but I do expect something better than basic hard plastics. I'd have said that's must be more bad luck. American interiors are reknown for being highly robust. I've also never seen a Daewoo that even gets close to the interior design of an upper market American car. The CTS interior:  A Daewoo interior:  Do you honestly think they even look remotely similar?
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Bladedancer
394 posts
65 months
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jbi said: 420hp from the current ford 5.0 in mustang form, 360hp in de-tuned f-150 form. The US has deserts. In fact the pickup truck is the vehicle of choice in the hot southern states. Particularly texas. Here is a comparo of the F-150 vs the toyota tundra showing the current problems with the Toyota's frame twisting and "bed bounce" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJZVUnOduH4Also... here is a video of libyans firing missiles from a yank truck (skip to 1:20) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGgEgM0qVDg&fea...Audi is the luxury best seller in China... not even BMW can touch them. But for overall volume GM is biggest seller in the country http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26c71f58-cb3c-11e1-b896-...Compared to what exactly? Mustang compares very favourable with cars in it's price bracket, yet stomps them on the racetrack. There are no old school cheap american V8, RWD cars anymore. The crown vic was the last. Luxury, sports, pickups and SUV's yes... but the Japanese also sell these with V8's as standard or optional. People keep mentioning mustang engine. I'd just like to point out that Ford 5.0 and LS variety aren't the only american V8 engines and not all of them are tuned the same level as in a Mustang. Just sayin. It is, however, true that US has woken up a bit and power is steadily going up over the past few years. I don't think militias are using brand new Toyotas... probably more of 70s and 80s stuff. As for China sales... last time I was there, and that was 5 years ago, BMW was the big seller. I'm going again this year so I'll have another look GM might be the biggest seller (is that total of just for a foreign car maker?) cause they have so many makes under their banner. And I bet most of the cars they sell are similar to what GM offers in Europe - think something like Vauxhall Astra, small-to-medium, relatively economical car. As for Mustang does indeed present good value for money but frankly I'd rather pay a little bit more and get an interior that doesn't act as a deterrent. After all, I do spend most of my car-time inside. And at the end of the day, the best interiors I've seen were Italian (Maserati Quattroporte Evoluzione to be precise) and I don't expect that for 30k... but I'd expect, say, BMW (3 series for 24k+) interior materials, or something slightly worse. Old school cars are fewer now cause almost everything had a V8 in the old days. Today US is crazy about SUVs (another thing I completely don't get), and Japs do sell V8 SUVs... in USA. Cause USA still expects a V8, almost no matter what car. Lexus has problems in EU cause none of their premium cars have diesels and in Europe people what to buy premium diesels. Just look how many A8, BMW 7 and Merc S diesels are on the road. Heck, trying to spot a A8 that isn't a TDI is a challenge. Infiniti goes the same way and although they have some sales, its mostly G, M and the smaller SUV (whats the name, EX or something?). All I'm saying is that USA itself is a very specific market with specific needs and expectations. GM sells big world wide, many of those cars sold abroad outside US are not what US market itself expects.
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Bladedancer
394 posts
65 months
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300bhp/ton said: I'd have said that's must be more bad luck. American interiors are reknown for being highly robust. I've also never seen a Daewoo that even gets close to the interior design of an upper market American car.
Do you honestly think they even look remotely similar?
Nice pictures. No they do no look similar but I said nothing about looks, did I? I was talking about material quality. Hard plastics, that sort of thing. And thought it might be a bit of an exaggeration I'd give you that. It also occurred to me that looks can be deceiving. Look at the Hyundais. The look really good inside. The illusion lasts until you touch them. Truth be told I responded in context of the CTS, which isn't that bad on the materials front but the poke was more towards US cars in general but that wasn't clear from the context, mea culpa.
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300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
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Bladedancer said: Truth be told I responded in context of the CTS, which isn't that bad on the materials front but the poke was more towards US cars in general but that wasn't clear from the context, mea culpa. Still don't see this. My 1994 Jeep Cherokee had a somewhat soft touch dash and was made from better materials than a same year Range Rover or Discovery (owned all 3 BTW). I'd say it was also nicer material wise than my brothers slightly newer Honda HR-V. My Camaro interior is easily nicer than a similar age Impreza. In fact the dash itself is lovely as are the controls. There are one or two cheaper bits of plastic, but then again an e46 BMW also has plenty of cheap plastic in it too. My 86 Ford T-Bird is easily as good as most other 80's cars of similar value. A Sierra or Caviler of the same era is no better. In fact in many respects the T-Bird is far superior.
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Bladedancer
394 posts
65 months
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300bhp/ton said: Still don't see this. My 1994 Jeep Cherokee had a somewhat soft touch dash and was made from better materials than a same year Range Rover or Discovery (owned all 3 BTW). I'd say it was also nicer material wise than my brothers slightly newer Honda HR-V.
My Camaro interior is easily nicer than a similar age Impreza. In fact the dash itself is lovely as are the controls. There are one or two cheaper bits of plastic, but then again an e46 BMW also has plenty of cheap plastic in it too.
My 86 Ford T-Bird is easily as good as most other 80's cars of similar value. A Sierra or Caviler of the same era is no better. In fact in many respects the T-Bird is far superior. Maybe we're just coming from different angles and have different things to compare. My opinion about US cars is mostly from comparing them to Volvos, Saabs, BMWs and Mazda. I don't know maybe I'm expecting too much.
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jbi
5,300 posts
73 months
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Bladedancer said: People keep mentioning mustang engine. I'd just like to point out that Ford 5.0 and LS variety aren't the only american V8 engines and not all of them are tuned the same level as in a Mustang. Just sayin.
It is, however, true that US has woken up a bit and power is steadily going up over the past few years. I agree here... thanks to a focus on improving fuel economy/emissions with CARB, american engines have taken great strides forward with efficiency. However unlike in Europe where manufacturers have downsized engines and maintained similar power levels, the Americans have retained displacement for the most part and increased overall power. Bladedancer said: I don't think militias are using brand new Toyotas... probably more of 70s and 80s stuff. A bit of a mix really. A lot of their stuff is stolen from Europe or government. Bladedancer said: As for China sales... last time I was there, and that was 5 years ago, BMW was the big seller. I'm going again this year so I'll have another look You will be surprised at just how fast the place has changed. Car are just one area... it's utterly gob-smacking. Bladedancer said: GM might be the biggest seller (is that total of just for a foreign car maker?) cause they have so many makes under their banner. And I bet most of the cars they sell are similar to what GM offers in Europe - think something like Vauxhall Astra, small-to-medium, relatively economical car. Yes that is the total volume, including Euro cars and Korean cars all sold as buicks. It also includes tie ups with domestic manufacturers. Bladedancer said: As for Mustang does indeed present good value for money but frankly I'd rather pay a little bit more and get an interior that doesn't act as a deterrent. After all, I do spend most of my car-time inside. Ford has to be careful it does not price itself out of it's target market. It is competing against the camaro, genesis, gt-86, and challenger which are all offered at a similar price. Bladedancer said: And at the end of the day, the best interiors I've seen were Italian (Maserati Quattroporte Evoluzione to be precise) and I don't expect that for 30k... but I'd expect, say, BMW (3 series for 24k+) interior materials, or something slightly worse. There is a difference between "perceived quality" and "actual quality". The american stuff may not look and feel as nice as the German stuff, but it's actually screwed together just as well or better. Bladedancer said: Old school cars are fewer now cause almost everything had a V8 in the old days. Today US is crazy about SUVs (another thing I completely don't get), and Japs do sell V8 SUVs... in USA. Cause USA still expects a V8, almost no matter what car. Only Europe seems to have a problem with petrol V8's. They are all over the place everywhere else in the world. Bladedancer said: Lexus has problems in EU cause none of their premium cars have diesels and in Europe people what to buy premium diesels. Just look how many A8, BMW 7 and Merc S diesels are on the road. Heck, trying to spot a A8 that isn't a TDI is a challenge. Indeed... it's a real shame. Bladedancer said: Infiniti goes the same way and although they have some sales, its mostly G, M and the smaller SUV (whats the name, EX or something?). The Japanese as a rule don't like diesels. Bladedancer said: All I'm saying is that USA itself is a very specific market with specific needs and expectations. GM sells big world wide, many of those cars sold abroad outside US are not what US market itself expects. Indeed the US market is heavily biased toward SUV's and pickup trucks, but this is also the case for many other markets around the world. i.e Brazil I would argue that the car market in this country would be very similar to the USA if we did not have the high tax rates or ridiculous VED tax band system.
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300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
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Bladedancer said: People keep mentioning mustang engine. I'd just like to point out that Ford 5.0 and LS variety aren't the only american V8 engines and not all of them are tuned the same level as in a Mustang. Just sayin. They are however mass market common engines rather than top of the line limited production engines. The 5.7 and 6.1 Hemi's from Chrysler are also superb. As are many of the V6's that are offered by all 3 companies. The biggest difference is they don't delude themselves that hp/litre is the winning ticket for everything. So are happy to use a lower tuned larger displacement engine. But often it's because the character of the engine simply suits the vehicles, roads and topography of the USA more so. If you're winding your way up and down the mountains all day long at 8000 feet above sea level, a highly strung small displacement engine that requires you to be at 6000rpm all the time would be bloody tiring, vs a grunty lowly tuned larger displacement engine that will happily perform as well at only 3000rpm. Bladedancer said: It is, however, true that US has woken up a bit and power is steadily going up over the past few years. Are you f  king mental?  The Yanks have ALWAYS been way ahead on the power front. Hell in the 60's they had standard production cars with over 300hp (even taking into account GROSS ratings). Even in the dark days of the late 70's you could still buy a 200hp/300ft lb Trans Am. 200hp!!! Europe didn't see power levels like that until the early 1990's for the average Jo Bloggs to buy. Bladedancer said: As for Mustang does indeed present good value for money but frankly I'd rather pay a little bit more and get an interior that doesn't act as a deterrent. Sorry but that is one stupid thing to say. People simply can't buy what they can't afford. Current Mustang GT is available new in the UK for £31k with 420hp. What vehicle offers even similar HP/performance for just a little more money that has a massively superior interior? As for the interior itself - what exactly is wrong with it? An e46 M3 is no better and far more dull and boring looking inside. Bladedancer said: After all, I do spend most of my car-time inside.
And at the end of the day, the best interiors I've seen were Italian (Maserati Quattroporte Evoluzione to be precise) and I don't expect that for 30k... but I'd expect, say, BMW (3 series for 24k+) interior materials, or something slightly worse. You see this is exactly what I said earlier - Mondeo money for M3 performance but with a £70k interior - it ain't going to happen. For the same money you WILL NOT buy the same HP and performance. There has to be a trade off somewhere. Also having owned a few BMW 3 Series (and been in many more) I really can't see the fuss over the interior. Just as cheap feeling as all others and usually send you to sleep boring to look at. Bladedancer said: Old school cars are fewer now cause almost everything had a V8 in the old days. No it didn't.  That's just the stereotypical bulls t somebody who knows nothing about such cars would say.
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PanzerCommander
2,703 posts
87 months
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Bladedancer said: And 350 bhp from almost 6 liters is a lot to you?
I won't even mention the fact that you could get the same performance out of modern V6 diesel (albeit not the same reliability)
As for sticking detuned V8/V6 - Americans might do that out of laziness, as mentioned, but isn't that becuase most R4 engines they've designer were a complete debacle?
I do wonder how V8 reduces spares cost however. Oil should be changed round the same time and there's faaaar more of it in a V8 than in R4, and you have 8 plugs not 4 so... where's the saving? To me 350bhp is a decent amount of power for a daily drive, I don’t care whether it is produced by an 8 litre to be honest so long as it is not a diesel really the bhp/litre it is irrelevant in every possible way for a road car and makes little difference to driving a car. To put it into perspective, my Mustang produces around 68bhp/litre with a ~15 horse remap (315bhp out of a 4.6), I get around 20mpg day to day, the aircon is a full time system in the ‘Stang too. I had a Ford Focus ST, 2.5l 225bhp (90bhp litre), now bearing in mind that the mustang has a slushmatic auto box weighs in at over 200kg more than the ST and produces more 90 more bhp and around 80lbft more torque, The ST used to give me around 22mpg doing exactly the same daily drive use, and only using the aircon ad hoc. The Mustang has also been more reliable (it is now as near as makes no difference 6 years old with 59,000 miles on it) whereas the ST at 26,000 miles and 2 & ½ years old wasn’t, it was the only car I ever owned that I had engine related problems with, with its ‘superior’ bhp/litre. People harp on about how their highly strung engine is better because it’s more sophisticated made of better materials and gets better bhp/litre…good for you, you can keep it because to me it is an inferior power plant and something I do not want. A big lazy v8 with its low bhp/litre is totally perfect for me, high revving screamers are fine…for somebody else. Cheap servicing on a small four vs a V8, well It costs me £45 to do an oil change in my 4.6 litre V8 (£10 of that is a K&N oil filter, regular motorcraft ones are about £5) and six quarts (5.75l) of Lucas 5w-20 fully synth oil (including postage costs here too). Spark plugs including shipping from the US and taxes cost me £35 for eight and an hour and a half to change them (an hour of that was letting the penetrating fluid do its job as per the ford TSB) Manufacture in large numbers and it is cheap And that is it aside from panel filter replacements (I have a washable filter anyway) that’s all the engine needs for 150,000 miles when you have to change the serpentine belt.
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y2blade
46,398 posts
84 months
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GingerJonny said: "Last of the V8 Interceptor's" Is all I hear when I read this   Ford should sell these here. 
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300bhp/ton
26,483 posts
59 months
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Bladedancer said: Maybe we're just coming from different angles and have different things to compare. My opinion about US cars is mostly from comparing them to Volvos, Saabs, BMWs and Mazda. I don't know maybe I'm expecting too much. Sounds more like you haven't spent much/any time in similar priced US vehicles. They all have a mass produced feel about them and I agree they are not Jaguar or Maserati interiors. But I certainly haven't seen an issue with most of them.
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Kiwipetrolhead
1 posts
16 months
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As a Kiwi who has lived in the UK, it is a travesty the Falcon (esp. XR6 Turbo and FPV models) aren't offered there. I have a 2009 Falcon G6 with the standard 4.0 in line six and it is brilliant. And handles really well for a big car. You guys in the UK are missing out!
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Bladedancer
394 posts
65 months
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300bhp/ton said: Sounds more like you haven't spent much/any time in similar priced US vehicles. They all have a mass produced feel about them and I agree they are not Jaguar or Maserati interiors. But I certainly haven't seen an issue with most of them. Aren't 300C and CTS supposed to be BMW/Audi equivalent?
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