RE: Caterham: the future
Discussion
MX7 said:
davepoth said:
It would appear that the Swiss regulations are actually a precursor to future European regulations - that's why Caterham need something that's not a Seven.
Why do you think that? Switzerland isn't even in the EU.http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29g...
davepoth said:
I didn't say EU though; it's the UNECE, which covers more countries.
http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29g...
But they don't have any say in EU regulations. The US are members, and their car regulations are very different to ours.http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29g...
suffolk009 said:
TonyHetherington said:
suffolk009 said:
Porsche can't kill off the 911
Although, to use Porsche as an example, they had to build the Boxster and Cayenne to save the company so they could continue making 911s (somewhat contradicting my point above, I realise).The problem with Caterham is that the Seven is the bread and butter model and that's what people want. It would be unwise to undermine that. Comparing them to Morgan is more appropriate, and Morgan's way of doing things their own way works very well for them. What I worry about is when companies try to enter markets they're not traditionally known for and compete with long established brands/products. That's when it usually all falls down (TVR/Lotus pushing up-market are two prime examples).
IMO they'd be better concentrating on the racing like Ginetta/Radical. It's more their area.
Bill said:
TonyHetherington said:
How many times over the past 10-15yrs have we read, in all forms of press "Caterham can't continue to survive on just the Seven, and all its iterations" ?
And yet, they're still here. With shareholder's investments comes the requirement for expansion. However, I don't think Caterham should expand in that respect - I think they should maximise themselves for the market they serve but no more.
And yet, they're still here. With shareholder's investments comes the requirement for expansion. However, I don't think Caterham should expand in that respect - I think they should maximise themselves for the market they serve but no more.
I can understand why they want to get bigger, but it's getting tougher and tougher to do and I really don't want to see them ruined in the attempt.Twincam16 said:
I think part of the problem is that so far as the market is concerned, Caterham is the 7 and the 7 is Caterham. They can get away with flyweight motorsport specials as a result (F1, SP300R), but I'm not sure they'd be forgiven for varying the recipe on the road.
What is more, their market knows what the cars are all about.Push into £40-50k territory and you run the risk that you end up with customers who want to buy "a sports car" (using the Daily Wail type definition where anything 2+0 or 2+2 is "a sports car"), receive a proper sports car (with all its inevitable quirks) for their money, and end up being disappointed and vocal.
A Scotsman said:
That not withstanding it seems to me that Caterham are now in the process of committing hari-kari. Fortunately we still have Westfield and that company seems to be run by people that are enthusiastic about cars!
As a long term Westfield owner, that statement couldn't be futher from the truth, sadly. The new owners have very little interest in cars and only seem interested in messing around with electric technology.The standard of customer service for the spares department for example has slipped to the point where it has become a joke. Do I still love my Westfield? Yes. Would I build another? Not on your life...
As for this Caterham will soon get the Elise chassis, where did this rumour come from. My personal belief is Lotus will not be selling that to Caterham. Why? Well, it is the fundamental technology thet Lotus pioneered which underpins *all* of their current cars, and with the current question marks surrounding the new owners and Lotus' future it is likely to for a while to come. Futhermore, Caterham bought the rights to the Seven because they were one of it's biggest sales outlets of the car and were rightly concerned about thier future without the car. Caterham have no connection what so ever to the Elise platform at the minute so there is no reason for Lotus to feel compeled to sell it to them, or indeed Caterham to buy it.
ewenm said:
You can't get a new 911 for £40k.
The new car isn't going to be a 7. I suspect it is going to be able to be stored outside, maintained by pretty much any garage (the 7 already can be) and be driven with ease to and from track, etc, etc (I did all this with my 7 but accept that many choose not to).
Trying to flog a new car at £40k+ with a 4-cyl engine might be a struggle though. Expectations are high and for many 4-cyl doesn't cut it.
I didnt mean a brand spanker but £40k buys a bloody good 911.The new car isn't going to be a 7. I suspect it is going to be able to be stored outside, maintained by pretty much any garage (the 7 already can be) and be driven with ease to and from track, etc, etc (I did all this with my 7 but accept that many choose not to).
Trying to flog a new car at £40k+ with a 4-cyl engine might be a struggle though. Expectations are high and for many 4-cyl doesn't cut it.
mickrick said:
So, an accountant is running the company now.
"Caterham had 'stalled' over the last couple of years, with a lack of new products beyond the 'parts bin' (his words...) but still wonderful Supersports. Cars like that can only keep Caterham going for so long though, "
Idiot!
Shock horror again...we agree!"Caterham had 'stalled' over the last couple of years, with a lack of new products beyond the 'parts bin' (his words...) but still wonderful Supersports. Cars like that can only keep Caterham going for so long though, "
Idiot!
juansolo said:
The money makers for Porsche are the Panamera and Cayenne, by quite a big margin. The 911 has it's place as the halo/hero model, hence it's pushed in motorsport even though it's a compromised platform next to say, the Cayman. Which conversely is the poorest selling model and therefore receives the least development/marketing, etc. If it sold well, damn right we'd have a Cayman GTS at the very least, they might even consider taking it racing... Let's face it, Porsche are money led and they've certainly tried to kill the 911 before.
Well that's misleading, as the 911 is the most profitable car per unit that Porsche make (a 911 turbo costing something like 6k euros more to make than a base spec boxster yet costing around 3 times the price!)What is interesting is when you think of where Porsche were in 1995.
One model, the expensive to build, unprofitable & soon to be legislated out air cooled 911.
Where they struck gold was in figuring out they could build the 911 & boxster off the same platform, with the same (basic) engines & drive trains & same generic parts (interior, lights & sundries).
Ie, two cars for the price of one developement.
What was clever, was their decision to base it all on the cheaper selling (though with more volume) boxster & getting the whole program done in 3 years.
Simply selling boxsters by the shed load provided a healthy profit, boosted by the (admittedly much more than before) slightly more limited appeal of the 911 which although sold in fewer numbers than the boxster, had such a profitable mark up it didn't just save the company, it got them within one court ruling of buying VW.
Porsche circa mid 90's are not the same as caterham today, though there are similarities.
It took a lot to change Porsche, but with strong leadership from the top who could see the writing was on the wall it certainly gives hope that other manufactures can do it too.
(I should maybe post this on the lotus thread too!)
otolith said:
Isn't Caterham already selling cars for 40k+?
I thought this was the case as well. A friend has a CSR and I'm sure it cost more than 40.
I found the CSR to be an exquisite piece of kit. The smoothness of the suspension and handling on normal roads came over as far superior to normal sevens.
Caterham aren't going to stop with the cheaper products but they can clearly sell a seven in the 40k band and I suspect there are people like me who love the seven experience but just don't want the seven shape etc.
Their 80k track car looks very impressive as well.
But something else to contemplate is that in Asia the new money doesn't want toys that look old like a seven. Like a lot of new money they shy away from heritage to start with and just want what is new and modern.
It's us Brits who love retro and the more established overseas punter but the largest group with money to blow are the Asian new money. Caterham need something that appeals more to this group.
Personally I think they should opt for a body shape that is ultra modern. It will shock us Brits but we are all debt ridden and depressed so not the best market to build a business around at the moment.
If you think back to the classic swooping shapes of the 60s that we all think of as beautifully classic, at the time they were cutting edge. So instead of harking back in time (they already build one of the most iconic cars from the past) I think they should look forward and do something that will catch the eyes of young Britons for future sales and modern overseas fat and growing wallets for current sales. This also geographically and culturally diversifies their revenue streams.
ewenm said:
cathalm said:
I wish the blokes from Dartford weren't going to lose their jobs.
Has that been confirmed in public?
AE82GT said:
If Caterham build the 7 outside the UK i'm selling mine in protest and ditching them.
The article doesn't say that either 
it says "Earlier in the year Ali revealed to us that the new road car would be .......And it would seem Macdonald has picked up this baton .... But will it be built in the UK? Possibly not says Macdonald"
rev-erend said:
Has anyone driven the 21 ?
Or own one ?
Try looking here Or own one ?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/doc.asp?c=16&i=25...
My fear is a small company like Caterham might easily take their eye off the goose that lays their golden egg (the Se7en) whilst developing their 'world beater'....look at TVR, Lotus and even Noble, they all hit problems trying to move up market; I'm not saying it can't be done; but it's a very difficult thing to pull off.
Caterham also need to remember that like TVR and Noble, their brand is not desperately strong in the wider sports car market which they would need to break into with the suggested new car; their brand is only well defined within enthusiasts of the ultra focussed se7en shape and mindset.
For me Caterham would be better continuing what they have done succesfully for many years; making a better and better se7en. Sometimes succesful niche businesses have to accept that they are just that!
Caterham also need to remember that like TVR and Noble, their brand is not desperately strong in the wider sports car market which they would need to break into with the suggested new car; their brand is only well defined within enthusiasts of the ultra focussed se7en shape and mindset.
For me Caterham would be better continuing what they have done succesfully for many years; making a better and better se7en. Sometimes succesful niche businesses have to accept that they are just that!
dingocooke said:
For me Caterham would be better continuing what they have done succesfully for many years; making a better and better se7en. Sometimes succesful niche businesses have to accept that they are just that!
Much truth in that: I can see that they are kind of between 'a rock and a hard place' but like I said in an earlier post, wheeling in a bean-counter with apparently the piloting/marketing skills of the captain of the Costa Concordia probably isn't the brightest of ideas. KernowSwiss said:
"Well, here in Switzerland the 7 is dead as of 1st jan 2013 - It will no longer be legal for new registration due to the open wheel design and new pedestrian safety legislation....If this type of legislation slowly spreads over Europe, which is not out of the question, the market for the 7 may shrink considerably...
Is that is why clamshell wings will still be available in Europe - and the car looks far better for it IMHO... Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff