RE: Lotus five-car future is canned
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
The real gamble and I think the smart move would be to affiliate with a slightly unconventional brand not one of the big established ones.
I'd pick an up and coming marque from the Far East. It's where the money is, it's where the margins are and it's where the big companies have ambition and a drive to get their brand up amongst the European makers.
You mean like Proton? I'd pick an up and coming marque from the Far East. It's where the money is, it's where the margins are and it's where the big companies have ambition and a drive to get their brand up amongst the European makers.
Twincam16 said:
That's interesting - according to Bobby Bell in the latest Autocar, part of their problem is that women don't buy enough of them, mainly because their sills are too high which makes them difficult to get in and out of wearing a skirt, so Lotus miss out on a large potential market.
This is where I think they lost their way. The made cars that look sweet to women but not remotely suited to women. No woman (in general) is going to buy such an impractical product. For starters if the roof doesn't come down by a button no image conscious woman is going to buy it as that same type of woman will have nails and hair to protect.
So straight off, no dead simple roof mechanism and you have no female sales.
And then with the cute looks you'll have no mainstream male sales.
This you end up only able to sell to enthusiasts and as such have a worthless model.
No mass producer of sportscars relies on enthusiasts for sales they get nearly all their sales from having a desirable and image focussed brand and look.
kambites said:
You mean like Proton?
I'd bin Proton. They are the weak player.
Kia and Hyundai have the clear ambition to surpass the European brands and also have good sales in Europe.
Your issue is whether the Lotus version can command the price premium it would need to be viable. A struggle in image focussed UK but maybe not in other markets.
DonkeyApple said:
No mass producer of sportscars relies on enthusiasts for sales they get nearly all their sales from having a desirable and image focussed brand and look.
Whilst this is true - they also tend to produce rather compromised drivers' cars as a result. There's no point in Lotus becoming another Porsche; Porsche are already very good at making Porsches. kambites said:
Whilst this is true - they also tend to produce rather compromised drivers' cars as a result. There's no point in Lotus becoming another Porsche; Porsche are already very good at making Porsches.
Yes and no. If you build a business to cater for enthusiasts then you only need a shed and a few blokes as you are only ever going to sell a small number of cars.
Porsche has the GT3 for its hardcore enthusiasts and the remaining 99% of sales are to the normal market.
No one should say that Lotus shouldn't sell a product for enthusiasts but to do that they need a product that the mainstream want and this means specific things. If you want to sell to women you need an electric roof and easy entry/exit. And quite frankly if you want to sell to most blokes you need the same.
You have a fat Lotus for these people and that will be 90% of your sales. And then you have your GT3 which has none of this faggy crap and is what a real Lotus should be in our eyes.
They need sales to survive. To get sales they need the right product and it is extremely clear that the brilliant product they have now is of no interest whatsoever to anyone in reality.
The world wants big engines, macho looks, electric roof, abs, airbags etc.
Doesn't mean you can't offer the same product without any of that stuff and use this hardcore wagon to promote your image.
It still needs to look less girly.
Let's face it, the headlamps on Lotuses are crying out for eyelashes and that says it all.
kambites said:
Whilst this is true - they also tend to produce rather compromised drivers' cars as a result. There's no point in Lotus becoming another Porsche; Porsche are already very good at making Porsches.
What's the alternative? Becoming another TVR? Staying Lotus?Neither looks good financially.
ZesPak said:
kambites said:
Whilst this is true - they also tend to produce rather compromised drivers' cars as a result. There's no point in Lotus becoming another Porsche; Porsche are already very good at making Porsches.
What's the alternative? Becoming another TVR? Staying Lotus?Neither looks good financially.
To be honest I probably wont anyway. Ginetta are looking much more promising to me these days.
DonkeyApple said:
You have a fat Lotus for these people and that will be 90% of your sales. And then you have your GT3 which has none of this faggy crap and is what a real Lotus should be in our eyes.
The problem is, I've driven several GT3s (including a 996 RS) and I just don't think they're particularly good - to my mind they are massively compromised as driver's cars by the fact they're built on a platform designed for a fat GT. Even if they had the right skills to, could you ever see Porsche building an Elise?
kambites said:
The problem is, I've driven several GT3s (including a 996 RS) and I just don't think they're particularly good - to my mind they are massively compromised as driver's cars by the fact they're built on a platform designed for a fat GT.
But this doesn't change the fact that it's the GT3 which reinforces their image as one of the best supercars in the world, continuously. It clearly drives as you can see their lap times around the globe. Don't forget that Lotus doesn't have to create a GT just a practical sportscar and they also have the advantage of putting the engine in a sensible place.
All this suggests to me that, if they get the roof right, the Evora convertible might turn out to be the market-friendly hit they've been waiting for.
Big, macho GTE restyle? Check.
Screaming supercharged engine? Check.
Easy to get in and out of? Check
Easy to put the roof up and down - I really hope I'll be able to say check.
Big, macho GTE restyle? Check.
Screaming supercharged engine? Check.
Easy to get in and out of? Check
Easy to put the roof up and down - I really hope I'll be able to say check.
kambites said:
To be honest I probably wont anyway. Ginetta are looking much more promising to me these days.
That's an interesting thought - Ginetta are buoyant and successful largely because they don't make any more cars than they know they're going to sell, keep them simple, and focus on what they do best, which is racing.Their road cars are merely racers with numberplates and slightly nicer interior trim. They probably don't cost Ginetta any more to build than the racers.
But look at how they've cornered their particular market. A Ginetta is an ideal way to get into top-flight racing for not much outlay. Race one and you'll end up on the telly. Win the championship and you end up with a BTCC drive.
They've stepped seamlessly into the shoes of the TVR Tuscan challenge. Perhaps Lotus should look at doing something similar with the Elise.
Thinking about it, Caterham is quite successful too, and has a similar approach to building and promoting cars through motorsport.
kambites said:
ZesPak said:
kambites said:
Whilst this is true - they also tend to produce rather compromised drivers' cars as a result. There's no point in Lotus becoming another Porsche; Porsche are already very good at making Porsches.
What's the alternative? Becoming another TVR? Staying Lotus?Neither looks good financially.
To be honest I probably wont anyway. Ginetta are looking much more promising to me these days.
Twincam16 said:
That's an interesting thought - Ginetta are buoyant and successful largely because they don't make any more cars than they know they're going to sell, keep them simple, and focus on what they do best, which is racing.
Their road cars are merely racers with numberplates and slightly nicer interior trim. They probably don't cost Ginetta any more to build than the racers.
But look at how they've cornered their particular market. A Ginetta is an ideal way to get into top-flight racing for not much outlay. Race one and you'll end up on the telly. Win the championship and you end up with a BTCC drive.
They've stepped seamlessly into the shoes of the TVR Tuscan challenge. Perhaps Lotus should look at doing something similar with the Elise.
Thinking about it, Caterham is quite successful too, and has a similar approach to building and promoting cars through motorsport.
Except tey are not buoyant or successful. They exist but it's pretty clear that this is all they are doing. Sadly. Their road cars are merely racers with numberplates and slightly nicer interior trim. They probably don't cost Ginetta any more to build than the racers.
But look at how they've cornered their particular market. A Ginetta is an ideal way to get into top-flight racing for not much outlay. Race one and you'll end up on the telly. Win the championship and you end up with a BTCC drive.
They've stepped seamlessly into the shoes of the TVR Tuscan challenge. Perhaps Lotus should look at doing something similar with the Elise.
Thinking about it, Caterham is quite successful too, and has a similar approach to building and promoting cars through motorsport.
Twincam16 said:
All this suggests to me that, if they get the roof right, the Evora convertible might turn out to be the market-friendly hit they've been waiting for.
Big, macho GTE restyle? Check.
Screaming supercharged engine? Check.
Easy to get in and out of? Check
Easy to put the roof up and down - I really hope I'll be able to say check.
The Evora is oK but do you honestly think it can be parked next to a Fezza or Lambo and square up to them?Big, macho GTE restyle? Check.
Screaming supercharged engine? Check.
Easy to get in and out of? Check
Easy to put the roof up and down - I really hope I'll be able to say check.
I think it suddenly looks awfully chunky and clumsy next to the main players' products.
I don't think Lotus have made a suitable looking car for mass appeal since the Esprit. That was a shape that could cut it in much bigger company. Nothing since has.
cjb1 said:
kambites said:
ZesPak said:
kambites said:
Whilst this is true - they also tend to produce rather compromised drivers' cars as a result. There's no point in Lotus becoming another Porsche; Porsche are already very good at making Porsches.
What's the alternative? Becoming another TVR? Staying Lotus?Neither looks good financially.
To be honest I probably wont anyway. Ginetta are looking much more promising to me these days.
NRS said:
cjb1 said:
kambites said:
ZesPak said:
kambites said:
Whilst this is true - they also tend to produce rather compromised drivers' cars as a result. There's no point in Lotus becoming another Porsche; Porsche are already very good at making Porsches.
What's the alternative? Becoming another TVR? Staying Lotus?Neither looks good financially.
To be honest I probably wont anyway. Ginetta are looking much more promising to me these days.
DonkeyApple said:
But this doesn't change the fact that it's the GT3 which reinforces their image as one of the best supercars in the world, continuously. It clearly drives as you can see their lap times around the globe.
Oh I agree it's fast, but I'm not a racing driver so lap-times mean nothing to me. I have nothing against Porsche - they do what they do very well and their profits speak for themselves. I just don't like any of their cars very much. If Lotus become another Porsche I'll be very happy for their employees, but will cease to have any interest in their cars.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 2nd August 14:39
kambites said:
Oh I agree it's fast, but I'm not a racing driver so lap-times mean nothing to me.
I have nothing against Porsche - they do what they do very well and their profits speak for themselves. I just don't like any of their cars very much.
I'm exactly the same. They are clearly great cars but leave me completely cold. I have nothing against Porsche - they do what they do very well and their profits speak for themselves. I just don't like any of their cars very much.
Growing up in a particular part of London and still being there they are almost the most common car you'll see.
I've driven a few and have absolutely no complaints but that's not a compliment. They simply do not inspire me personally in any way.
It's a car I would buy my wife if she wanted one as it would be fine for me to drive on occasions.
But the simple reality is that you and I are the minority. The absolute minority.
I love the concept and history of Lotus but my single biggest issue is that they look like toys, not serious kit and I do think that is a huge problem for them as I don't believe I'm alone. Too small, too cute to be taken seriously by the important majority.
Lardy lady car for the girls, poofs and status kids. Hardcore, stripped version for the enthusiasts. Probably sell 50:1 but both need each other. One needs the hardcore image of the other to hide the girly functions and the other needs the girly car to bankroll it.
DonkeyApple said:
Scuffers said:
if you cast your minds back they said exactly the same about the Evora....... that went well.
But I do wonder if it would have sold more if the shape was more aggressive, more manly. Women seem to look at a Lotus and go 'ahhhhh, that's sweet'. Personally that's great for a Figarro but it's fatal if your designed sales target is men.
They need a car that portrays the image of walking into a bar, punching a bloke to the floor and carrying his girlfriend out over his shoulders.
They need to make the cars slightly larger and just more punchy in the looks department.
As to Lotus and manly/aggressive design your own ideas on this could be and probably are different to other people. As it happen I do agree, but I don't see this was a problem. Lotus have often in past so soft designs and aggressive ones side by side.
The Elan, Elite and Eroupa were all at the soft end for me. The Elcat (yes it was an Elite really) a little harder edged and the Esprit very hard. All are Lotus and all sold well.
KDIcarmad said:
Bit sexist here. Most women, not those on here or married/ going out with you, don't care if the cars a Lotus a Ferrari or Lambo.
As to Lotus and manly/aggressive design your own ideas on this could be and probably are different to other people. As it happen I do agree, but I don't see this was a problem. Lotus have often in past so soft designs and aggressive ones side by side.
The Elan, Elite and Eroupa were all at the soft end for me. The Elcat (yes it was an Elite really) a little harder edged and the Esprit very hard. All are Lotus and all sold well.
I doubt that there is a woman in the West who doesn't know what the words Ferrari and Lambo mean, even if they have no idea what they are. As to Lotus and manly/aggressive design your own ideas on this could be and probably are different to other people. As it happen I do agree, but I don't see this was a problem. Lotus have often in past so soft designs and aggressive ones side by side.
The Elan, Elite and Eroupa were all at the soft end for me. The Elcat (yes it was an Elite really) a little harder edged and the Esprit very hard. All are Lotus and all sold well.
Very few at all will have heard the word Lotus.
One thing DB got right was his understanding of how the modern world works and how the Lotus brand simply doesn't fit into it as anything but a wonderful niche.
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