RE: Lotus five-car future is canned

[otolith]

DonkeyApple said:

The SUV

The one vehicle that is the furthest removed from the ethos of Lotus is the one vehicle that is crying out for the Lotus magic.

Just imagine how much weight Lotus could remove from something like a RR Sport? Better handling and more power. And then imagine the margin that this segment of the market is able to swallow.

But nobody gives a damn about lightness in an SUV, you can just fit a bigger engine if you want it to accelerate quicker. Nobody buys an SUV for its handling or fuel economy.

[Twincam16]

I reckon the only Lotus SUV that'd be readily accepted by the market would be something akin to a civilised Bowler Wildcat, or maybe a kind of four-seater modern high-tech dune-buggy thing.

Funnily enough Lotus Design has penned a concept SUV for the Far-Eastern market before:



The Neo Mattina, designed for Kia as part of their occasional partnership that's also, over the years, generated the Kia Elan and the Soul.

However, I still don't think a copycat Lotus SUV that tried to be exactly the same as all the others would be convincing enough for people to buy enough of them. Ferrari doesn't do them for the same reason, but its FF is an acknowledgement of the fact that people use Ferraris on things other than plate-glass-smooth asphalt. The only reason why Porsche and Lamborghini have them is because they have access to the Toureg platform - if they were on their own I can't imagine they'd come up with anything so concurrently convincing and high-quality.

I reckon Lotus could possibly get away with something Nissan Juke-sized, considerably lighter than the competition and with a clear sporting bent taking inspiration from Dakar and Baja. If it was A.N. Other soft- or toff-roader with FWD and road tyres or some colossal V8 and luxobarge interior that weighed three tonnes it just wouldn't be a Lotus and I'm not convinced Lotus Engineering could pull it off anyway.

However, having said that I think there's more mileage in Lotus tuning another saloon to Lotus Carlton levels of rocketry. They need to base it on something credible, but that doesn't have a version comparable to an M5. The Lotus Carlton (and before it, the Cortina) has an enormous following and massive respect among performance saloon fans.

Actually - here's a thought - Kia and Hyundai have enough of a following in Europe and yet we're denied the desirable V6/V8 RWD models they get in America. Would the Lotus badge be the best way to introduce Europe to the Genesis? Because I can't see anyone buying a high-performance Hyundai saloon or coupe - but one tuned by and badged as a Lotus? Might work, especially if it undercut the competition.



I can picture this with the grille reworked as a Lotus 'mouth' and the headlights smoked black and shaped like an Elise's.

Edited by Twincam16 on Wednesday 8th August 10:48

[DonkeyApple]

otolith said:

But nobody gives a damn about lightness in an SUV, you can just fit a bigger engine if you want it to accelerate quicker. Nobody buys an SUV for its handling or fuel economy.

Not so sure.

People buy Cayennes and even the Turbo version so performance as well as brand are important.

Lotus could bring both to a model.

Also not sure people don't care about weight as there is a lot to chop to gain performance.

I think the Lotus concept could bring something very new to the SUV market as well as allowing them to cash in on a very healthy market segment.

No one cared about a Vauxhall Carlton which arguably was in a similar market segment all the way back then but everyone likes the Lotus Carlton.

If you were to recreate the Carlton project today you would very obviously use an SUV not a big saloon as that is where that particular segment of the market has moved in reality.

And most crucially it is where the best margins are as well as the largest price elasticity.

If Lotus did a hot hatch they'd have to add in the region of 15-20k to the price to cover the cost of the work and make a good margin. I think that would result in zero sales but you could add that and more to an SUV and still achieve sales.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 8th August 10:51

[DonkeyApple]

Twincam16 said:

I reckon the only Lotus SUV that'd be readily accepted by the market would be something akin to a civilised Bowler Wildcat, or maybe a kind of four-seater modern high-tech dune-buggy thing.

Funnily enough Lotus Design has penned a concept SUV for the Far-Eastern market before:



The Neo Mattina, designed for Kia as part of their occasional partnership that's also, over the years, generated the Kia Elan and the Soul.

However, I still don't think a copycat Lotus SUV that tried to be exactly the same as all the others would be convincing enough for people to buy enough of them. Ferrari doesn't do them for the same reason, but its FF is an acknowledgement of the fact that people use Ferraris on things other than plate-glass-smooth asphalt. The only reason why Porsche and Lamborghini have them is because they have access to the Toureg platform - if they were on their own I can't imagine they'd come up with anything so concurrently convincing and high-quality.

I reckon Lotus could possibly get away with something Nissan Juke-sized, considerably lighter than the competition and with a clear sporting bent taking inspiration from Dakar and Baja. If it was A.N. Other soft- or toff-roader with FWD and road tyres or some colossal V8 and luxobarge interior that weighed three tonnes it just wouldn't be a Lotus and I'm not convinced Lotus Engineering could pull it off anyway.

However, having said that I think there's more mileage in Lotus tuning another saloon to Lotus Carlton levels of rocketry. They need to base it on something credible, but that doesn't have a version comparable to an M5. The Lotus Carlton (and before it, the Cortina) has an enormous following and massive respect among performance saloon fans.

Actually - here's a thought - Kia and Hyundai have enough of a following in Europe and yet we're denied the desirable V6/V8 RWD models they get in America. Would the Lotus badge be the best way to introduce Europe to the Genesis? Because I can't see anyone buying a high-performance Hyundai saloon or coupe - but one tuned by and badged as a Lotus? Might work, especially if it undercut the competition.



I can picture this with the grille reworked as a Lotus 'mouth' and the headlights smoked black and shaped like an Elise's.

Edited by Twincam16 on Wednesday 8th August 10:48

I don't think for a moment they could build an SUV. What I am thinking is that as the SUV is the modern saloon then using an existing one to recreate the Carlton scenario has the potential to stack up commercially unlike working on a cheap 2 seater or a hatchback.

[Twincam16]

DonkeyApple said:

Not so sure.

People buy Cayennes and even the Turbo version so performance as well as brand are important.

Lotus could bring both to a model.

Also not sure people don't care about weight as there is a lot to chop to gain performance.

I think the Lotus concept could bring something very new to the SUV market as well as allowing them to cash in on a very healthy market segment.

No one cared about a Vauxhall Carlton which arguably was in a similar market segment all the way back then but everyone likes the Lotus Carlton.

If you were to recreate the Carlton project today you would very obviously use an SUV not a big saloon as that is where that particular segment of the market has moved in reality.

And most crucially it is where the best margins are as well as the largest price elasticity.

If Lotus did a hot hatch they'd have to add in the region of 15-20k to the price to cover the cost of the work and make a good margin. I think that would result in zero sales but you could add that and more to an SUV and still achieve sales.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 8th August 10:51

I still can't see anyone buying it.

People seem to buy SUVs as statements of arrogance as much as anything else. 'I can lord it over you, peasant, look at me then avert your eyes from my magnificence, I can afford to burn stloads of fuel and not give a toss because I am considerably richear than yow.'

That kind of buyer is more bothered about the stitching on the centre console than the lightweight aluminium chassis architecture. Lotus's work would be lost on their autobox, floor-it-everywhere-but-botter-round-the-corners Daily Mail-fuelled perma-rage driving style too.

No-one is going to go shopping for an SUV and beat a path to Lotus's door. They won't care for anything Lotus does to improve an SUV, nor will they justify the money they'd have to ask.

I agree Lotus could offer something new to the SUV market, but I feel it'd be more in adding genuine off-road performance ability, rally-style handling and greater efficiency to the Juke/Evoque class.

The kind of people who buy the sort of SUV you're talking about are the same sort of people who come on here gleefully anticipating Lotus to be shut down and its workers laid off in an overt I'm-a-winner display of pseudo-Darwinian bloodlust. They wouldn't buy a Lotus if their life depended on it in the same way they wouldn't drive a Citroen or a Mitsubishi.

[otolith]

DonkeyApple said:

otolith said:

But nobody gives a damn about lightness in an SUV, you can just fit a bigger engine if you want it to accelerate quicker. Nobody buys an SUV for its handling or fuel economy.

Not so sure.

People buy Cayennes and even the Turbo version so performance as well as brand are important.

Lotus could bring both to a model.

They care about straight line performance - much easier to just turn up the boost than to engineer significant weight reduction. There is an awful lot of weight in a premium SUV, but that's in large part because it is a massive, luxurious vehicle with a robust 4wd drivetrain and a big engine. Lotus have enough trouble convincing sports car buyers to trade lightness for luxury and power, I just don't see that Cayenne buyers give a toss. I reckon that if Lotus took half the weight out of a Cayenne door, the owners would say that it felt flimsy and unconvincing.

Don't forget that the Lotus Carlton was substantially heavier than the Carlton GSi it was based on - it wasn't really an example of Lotus adding lightness, it was a soup-up and make-handle job.

DonkeyApple said:

If Lotus did a hot hatch they'd have to add in the region of 15-20k to the price to cover the cost of the work and make a good margin. I think that would result in zero sales but you could add that and more to an SUV and still achieve sales.

Agreed. I don't really see that as a goer.

[DonkeyApple]

Twincam16 said:

I still can't see anyone buying it.

People seem to buy SUVs as statements of arrogance as much as anything else. 'I can lord it over you, peasant, look at me then avert your eyes from my magnificence, I can afford to burn stloads of fuel and not give a toss because I am considerably richear than yow.'

That kind of buyer is more bothered about the stitching on the centre console than the lightweight aluminium chassis architecture. Lotus's work would be lost on their autobox, floor-it-everywhere-but-botter-round-the-corners Daily Mail-fuelled perma-rage driving style too.

No-one is going to go shopping for an SUV and beat a path to Lotus's door. They won't care for anything Lotus does to improve an SUV, nor will they justify the money they'd have to ask.

I agree Lotus could offer something new to the SUV market, but I feel it'd be more in adding genuine off-road performance ability, rally-style handling and greater efficiency to the Juke/Evoque class.

The kind of people who buy the sort of SUV you're talking about are the same sort of people who come on here gleefully anticipating Lotus to be shut down and its workers laid off in an overt I'm-a-winner display of pseudo-Darwinian bloodlust. They wouldn't buy a Lotus if their life depended on it in the same way they wouldn't drive a Citroen or a Mitsubishi.

I think it's more the people not in SUVs who think SUV drivers as a whole think like that.

Also, I'm not talking about Lotus making a chassis at all. I'm looking at this from the angle of taking a manufacturers's model and blinging it up the way Lotus did with the Carlton.

People buy Overfinch cars For example. Now these cater for people who want more luxury and to advertise this on the outside.

There will be people who want a similar product but in the vein of more heritage and sportiness etc. again, like the Carlton.

Adding offroad performance is a dead end. No one uses high end SUVs for offroad. They are used to munch miles, transport numbers, lord it over others and the sport versions for going fast. All things a Lotus version of an existing SUV product could amplify. Plenty of SUV owners would trade luxury gizmos for more Sport and the kudos of a performance sticker.

But what we are really looking at is a revenue stream based upon the old model of the Sunbeam or Carlton. When you look at where you could do this and retain margin for profit it's only really the SUV market that fits the bill.

[DonkeyApple]

otolith said:

They care about straight line performance - much easier to just turn up the boost than to engineer significant weight reduction. There is an awful lot of weight in a premium SUV, but that's in large part because it is a massive, luxurious vehicle with a robust 4wd drivetrain and a big engine. Lotus have enough trouble convincing sports car buyers to trade lightness for luxury and power, I just don't see that Cayenne buyers give a toss. I reckon that if Lotus took half the weight out of a Cayenne door, the owners would say that it felt flimsy and unconvincing.

Don't forget that the Lotus Carlton was substantially heavier than the Carlton GSi it was based on - it wasn't really an example of Lotus adding lightness, it was a soup-up and make-handle job.

Just as an exercise, how would you take an existing 4x4 and say to yourself, I need this to be lighter, faster, more agile.

One radical area to look at is to seriously question why an SUV needs to be 4x4? Most sales are for urban use and there is simply no need for it. Even in bad weather other big car owner manage to survive so if we really look at this aspect honestly it is really just a legacy of the agricultural and military heritage of the concept.

So, you can install a much lighter and more efficient and simple drivetrain.

Obviously you can then boost the engine a bit for marketing needs.

Next the interior, all those heavy seats can come out as can all the centre console stuff. All replaced with super light equipment.

Now the panels. Tailgates can be composite as can the roof and bonnet and maybe even some of the wings.

I reckon that you could strip an awful lot of weight out from something like a RR Sport and also lower the centre of gravity.

You then improve handling and finally lay over all of this the Lotus branding.

But the reason I am putting this forward is not because it is necessarily the solution but a concept that has more financial upside than what Lotus is currently doing as well as in contrast to applying the Lotus brand to any other type of car.

[Twincam16]

DonkeyApple said:

otolith said:

They care about straight line performance - much easier to just turn up the boost than to engineer significant weight reduction. There is an awful lot of weight in a premium SUV, but that's in large part because it is a massive, luxurious vehicle with a robust 4wd drivetrain and a big engine. Lotus have enough trouble convincing sports car buyers to trade lightness for luxury and power, I just don't see that Cayenne buyers give a toss. I reckon that if Lotus took half the weight out of a Cayenne door, the owners would say that it felt flimsy and unconvincing.

Don't forget that the Lotus Carlton was substantially heavier than the Carlton GSi it was based on - it wasn't really an example of Lotus adding lightness, it was a soup-up and make-handle job.

Just as an exercise, how would you take an existing 4x4 and say to yourself, I need this to be lighter, faster, more agile.

One radical area to look at is to seriously question why an SUV needs to be 4x4? Most sales are for urban use and there is simply no need for it. Even in bad weather other big car owner manage to survive so if we really look at this aspect honestly it is really just a legacy of the agricultural and military heritage of the concept.

So, you can install a much lighter and more efficient and simple drivetrain.

Obviously you can then boost the engine a bit for marketing needs.

Next the interior, all those heavy seats can come out as can all the centre console stuff. All replaced with super light equipment.

Now the panels. Tailgates can be composite as can the roof and bonnet and maybe even some of the wings.

I reckon that you could strip an awful lot of weight out from something like a RR Sport and also lower the centre of gravity.

You then improve handling and finally lay over all of this the Lotus branding.

But the reason I am putting this forward is not because it is necessarily the solution but a concept that has more financial upside than what Lotus is currently doing as well as in contrast to applying the Lotus brand to any other type of car.

That's the thing though - yes, it's a radical departure for the SUV market and it's probably the only SUV I'd buy, but would anyone want to buy a car like that in any considerable numbers? I think people who buy big SUVs routinely like the weighty, substantial nature of everything.

The reason why the Lotus Carlton was so popular (and no doubt would have sold way more cars had we not been in a recession at the time) was because it was by far and away the fastest saloon car you could buy. In fact it was faster than most cars full stop. Its performance was superior in every way to the Ferrari Testarossa, and yet it used nearly half the fuel, cost a lot less and had four doors, rear seats and a big boot. It was an absolute revelation that grabbed headlines everywhere, provoked Ferrari into developing the 512TR and caused such outrage it was mentioned by name in a question in the House of Commons.

It was that headline-making ability that spurred people on into the showroom. Then people drove it and realised it went round corners rather quickly too.

What I reckon would work is if Lotus apply their special ballistic no-holds-barred Carlton-style tuning approach to an entire range of cars including an SUV. They were originally going to do this with Vauxhall following the Carlton, but the recession and the sale of Lotus to Bugatti put paid to it. One of Mike Kimberley's biggest regrets was apparently that the Lotus Calibra never saw the light of day. The prototype had a longitudinally-mounted Lotus Carlton straight-six and four-wheel drive. Coupled with the drag coefficient of the Calibra he reckons they could have got over 180mph out of it and helped turn 'Vauxhall-Lotus' into a performance brand distinctly separate from Opel.

As it transpired, we've got VXR instead, which is basically Opel's OPC with the steering and suspension rates retuned for British roads following input from the people who set up Vauxhall's BTCC cars.

So, let's have a look at the car ranges that Lotus could give their own unique makeover to. IMO it has to include saloons, hatches and SUVs (maybe even MPVs given things like the S-Max Turbo, Zafira VXR and AMG B-class), have sufficient prestige in the marketplace to command the premiums Lotus needs, be sporty enough to retain and tap into F1 credibility, but have no current equivalent of MSport or AMG:

-Buick? Massive presence in China, could be sold in the UK through Vauxhall dealers, Lotus-Buick heritage to play upon with the 15 sports-racer and wider GM involvement with the Lotus Carlton. As a brand it's selling well and with the right concentration a relaunch in Europe could see it challenging Audi. Access to Corvette engines too.

-Ford? OK, so there's the new Focus ST and a global Mustang is on its way, but no matter how good they are to drive the whole Ford range is looking rather dowdy. Lotus-Ford is a partnership that's almost as old as Lotus itself, so perhaps it can be a modern equivalent of the old Boreham RS division. People are paying not far off premium money for Fords as it is to the point where Ford is perfectly content not to bother entering the 'Premium Compact' market as the Fiesta does the job perfectly well as it is. A Lotus SUV based on a Kuga would be like a Focus ST on steroids, could be brilliant.

-Honda? Another old Lotus partner with F1 engines back in the Eighties, so lots of Senna heritage to play on. OK, so Honda has Type-R, but they've never quite got their mojo back after canning the EP3 Civic and concurrent Integra (the Integra name's now on a motorbike). Like Ford, they're one of those semi-premium names that used to be about cheapness but are now about technology and refinement now you have things like Hyundai and Chevrolet beneath them, plus in the US Acura is seen as being up there with BMW.

-Hyundai's Genesis sub-range? Could be launched in Europe to get the Koreans into the premium bracket. Right now Europeans won't buy an expensive Hyundai or Kia, but they might if it was badged as a 'Lotus Genesis'. Lotus and Kia have worked together too.

-Infiniti? They have links to Renault (who provide Lotus's F1 engines), Nissan (with whom Lotus have worked on the GTR), and Formula 1 in general, although despite a lukewarm 'by Vettel' version of their saloon they're not really considered capable of taking on Mercedes. But with Lotus versions of their cars? They could storm into the Rhineland and headbutt AMG in the face. Their proposed hybrid sports car is based on an Evora too.

-Subaru? They're looking for direction and differentiation at the moment. People will pay a reasonable amount for their cars, and they're considered to be very well made but not dynamically engaging any more. Good, solid selection of hatches, saloons, estates and SUVs, plus the BRZ, but is there really any overwhelming reason to buy one other than reliability? Lotus could be that reason.

-Volvo? They have Polestar but they just don't seem to be doing anything other than bringing out exciting concept cars that they announce almost immediately that they aren't going to build. Maybe it's because they don't have the production capacity to do it - so Lotus could be that capacity.

[DonkeyApple]

A whole range is the best solution. As we discussed in another thread a while back, become the performance 'house' for a big manufacturer. Like AMG were etc.

Downside would be you'd be moving back to the 5 model concept from a company which struggles with 1?

With the SUV concept I think they could sell rather a lot. The money that is around at the moment is going into SUVs and to put the Sport back in Sport Utility Vehicle could actually see good sales numbers.

An SUV that was faster, lighter, more nimble and better economy and most important a pedigree brand could actually make good inroads.

[otolith]

DonkeyApple said:

Just as an exercise, how would you take an existing 4x4 and say to yourself, I need this to be lighter, faster, more agile.

One radical area to look at is to seriously question why an SUV needs to be 4x4? Most sales are for urban use and there is simply no need for it. Even in bad weather other big car owner manage to survive so if we really look at this aspect honestly it is really just a legacy of the agricultural and military heritage of the concept.

So, you can install a much lighter and more efficient and simple drivetrain.

Obviously you can then boost the engine a bit for marketing needs.

Next the interior, all those heavy seats can come out as can all the centre console stuff. All replaced with super light equipment.

Now the panels. Tailgates can be composite as can the roof and bonnet and maybe even some of the wings.

I reckon that you could strip an awful lot of weight out from something like a RR Sport and also lower the centre of gravity.

You then improve handling and finally lay over all of this the Lotus branding.

I reckon the kind of people who buy premium SUVs would complain that the car didn't feel sufficiently robust and the interior lacked "quality" and the car would get stuck in the snow - and the kind of people who would say they were being ridiculous wouldn't want an SUV in the first place.

[Twincam16]

otolith said:

DonkeyApple said:

Just as an exercise, how would you take an existing 4x4 and say to yourself, I need this to be lighter, faster, more agile.

One radical area to look at is to seriously question why an SUV needs to be 4x4? Most sales are for urban use and there is simply no need for it. Even in bad weather other big car owner manage to survive so if we really look at this aspect honestly it is really just a legacy of the agricultural and military heritage of the concept.

So, you can install a much lighter and more efficient and simple drivetrain.

Obviously you can then boost the engine a bit for marketing needs.

Next the interior, all those heavy seats can come out as can all the centre console stuff. All replaced with super light equipment.

Now the panels. Tailgates can be composite as can the roof and bonnet and maybe even some of the wings.

I reckon that you could strip an awful lot of weight out from something like a RR Sport and also lower the centre of gravity.

You then improve handling and finally lay over all of this the Lotus branding.

I reckon the kind of people who buy premium SUVs would complain that the car didn't feel sufficiently robust and the interior lacked "quality" and the car would get stuck in the snow - and the kind of people who would say they were being ridiculous wouldn't want an SUV in the first place.

Precisely.

An entire range with Lotus performance models I can see, definitely, with an SUV part of that lineup, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on it. I think people buying SUVs do so for reasons other than the kind of maximum performance a Lotus overhaul would convey.

I can see Lotus as a potential AMG. Brutal in-house performance makeovers for Mercedes, while at the same time providing the engineering for Pagani (Pagani don't use 'Mercedes engines', they use AMG engines - you can't get Mercs with those displacements - plus all the ancilliaries, gearboxes etc attached to them).

However, those ultra-tuned SUVs never sell very well. You don't see anywhere near as many X5Ms as you do M3s, for example, and have you ever even seen a Jeep Cherokee SRT8? SUVs sell well, yes, but mainly in lumbering mud-plugging diesel super-torque form, and Lotus wouldn't be the right marque to call upon to build one of those. The manufacturers who offer super-SUVs do so knowing that they don't really have to worry much about not selling too many because all they're really doing is transplanting the engine that sells better in a supersaloon for the sake of it.

So yes, it'd be great for Lotus to offer tuning for an entire range, but I wouldn't make the SUV the main focus of it.

[otolith]

The dificulty I have with Lotus polishing someone else's product is that while that is something they are very good at and a service they provide to many cars which don't even carry Lotus branding, it isn't something which allows them to express the engineering principles that differentiate the brand from other sporting marques. The cars are not going to be innovative, and are only going to be lightened by being decontented, not by being innovatively constructed.

I can see collaboration with others in a Lotus-X branded way as a part of the business model, but it's more of a reliable income for Lotus Engineering not Lotus Cars, and it is the latter part of the business which really needs to find a way forwards.

[Twincam16]

otolith said:

The dificulty I have with Lotus polishing someone else's product is that while that is something they are very good at and a service they provide to many cars which don't even carry Lotus branding, it isn't something which allows them to express the engineering principles that differentiate the brand from other sporting marques. The cars are not going to be innovative, and are only going to be lightened by being decontented, not by being innovatively constructed.

I can see collaboration with others in a Lotus-X branded way as a part of the business model, but it's more of a reliable income for Lotus Engineering not Lotus Cars, and it is the latter part of the business which really needs to find a way forwards.

I think there can be benefits both ways.

Looking at my list of potential cars for them to tune, I reckon Infiniti or Lexus would be their best bet as neither has an 'M-division'. Both sell extremely well in the States and the Far East, and are considered comparable to the German marques, but their M-division is unforthcoming.

If Lotus helped to tune, say, the Infiniti range, with Lotus Carlton-style versions of the G-series as an M3-basher, the M-series up against the big AMG Mercedes saloons and the X-series SUVs could be made to go round corners better, and in addition the Emerg-E could be put into production on the Evora platform as planned, then in return Lotus could get access to their best engines and transmissions as and when they're produced. This would give them an optional dual-clutch transmission, reliable and powerful engines for further tuning, and Nissan quality control. These things could go on to make Lotus sports cars better.

It'd be a mutually beneficial agreement. Sounds like Lotus has worked on the Nissan GTR as well, so it's not without precedence.

[KDIcarmad]

DonkeyApple said:

KDIcarmad said:

Bit sexist here. Most women, not those on here or married/ going out with you, don't care if the cars a Lotus a Ferrari or Lambo.

As to Lotus and manly/aggressive design your own ideas on this could be and probably are different to other people. As it happen I do agree, but I don't see this was a problem. Lotus have often in past so soft designs and aggressive ones side by side.

The Elan, Elite and Eroupa were all at the soft end for me. The Elcat (yes it was an Elite really) a little harder edged and the Esprit very hard. All are Lotus and all sold well.

I doubt that there is a woman in the West who doesn't know what the words Ferrari and Lambo mean, even if they have no idea what they are.

Very few at all will have heard the word Lotus.

One thing DB got right was his understanding of how the modern world works and how the Lotus brand simply doesn't fit into it as anything but a wonderful niche.

This still don't care! If it is a Ferrari, Lambo or an Audi!

[Tuna]

otolith said:

The dificulty I have with Lotus polishing someone else's product is that while that is something they are very good at and a service they provide to many cars which don't even carry Lotus branding, it isn't something which allows them to express the engineering principles that differentiate the brand from other sporting marques. The cars are not going to be innovative, and are only going to be lightened by being decontented, not by being innovatively constructed.

I don't see that polishing other people's product can be that profitable. Nice work for the engineering consultancy, but not enough to maintain a workforce and R&D department of the size they have. If the margins on cars are tight, how do you get any meaningful value out of a product someone else has built and will sell?

It's not as if they sell in huge numbers either - 950 Lotus Carltons were produced. Even if Lotus got 10 grand from each car they fettled, that's a pitiful amount of money for four years' work. Now, I know the Carlton was produced in the midst of a recession, but that's what car companies have to live with - just as the Evora has had to do. Without the recession, it's not as if the Carlton would have sold in tens of thousands.

[Blib]

Well, unless they do something to earn some money and earn it fast, this conversation will be moot. Personally, I do like the 'Proton rally car for the road, breathed on by Lotus' idea as at least a quickish way to generate funds and raise awareness for their other products.

[RTH]

Twincam16 said:

I still can't see anyone buying it.

People seem to buy SUVs as statements of arrogance as much as anything else. 'I can lord it over you, peasant, look at me then avert your eyes from my magnificence, I can afford to burn stloads of fuel and not give a toss because I am considerably richear than yow.'

That kind of buyer is more bothered about the stitching on the centre console than the lightweight aluminium chassis architecture. Lotus's work would be lost on their autobox, floor-it-everywhere-but-botter-round-the-corners Daily Mail-fuelled perma-rage driving style too.

No-one is going to go shopping for an SUV and beat a path to Lotus's door. They won't care for anything Lotus does to improve an SUV, nor will they justify the money they'd have to ask.

I agree Lotus could offer something new to the SUV market, but I feel it'd be more in adding genuine off-road performance ability, rally-style handling and greater efficiency to the Juke/Evoque class.

The kind of people who buy the sort of SUV you're talking about are the same sort of people who come on here gleefully anticipating Lotus to be shut down and its workers laid off in an overt I'm-a-winner display of pseudo-Darwinian bloodlust. They wouldn't buy a Lotus if their life depended on it in the same way they wouldn't drive a Citroen or a Mitsubishi.

Spot on.

[forzaminardi]

If I were in charge of Lotus, I'd do the following:

Product range:

Keep making the Elise as a no-frills reasonably affordable fun car for hardcore enthusiasts, update as necessary. Spin offs like the Exige as and when.

Develop the Evora to become a more convincing sports GT sort of car, primarily by improving the perceived quality and powertrain. The driving experience may be sacrificed as the expense of adding jeejaws, gadgets, soft-touch plastics etc in order to make the car more appealing to these type of buyers.

Continue with the new Esprit as an aspirational almost 'supercar' halo model. Tinker with this using hybrid power etc. to get a few headlines.

To make all of the above possible it might be necessary to ally with a major manufacturer for engines and technology. Also the above might not make much money. If so, a reciprocal arrangement of Lotus-fettled and badged 'normal' cars from said manufacturer would be good. The manufacturer would have to be one without a highly recognisable 'performance' sub-brand, so no Renault (Renaultsport), BMW (M) and so on. A Japanese or Korean brand might be perfect. Focus on making their more basic models 'sporty' and take a cut of the sales.

Marketing:

Organise official Lotus Elise-only race series in Europe, Asia and the USA and run these in conjunction with competitions to win a drive etc. These could be supported by races involving the 'other manufacturers' models or alongside existing categories.

Support independent teams who want to race Elises and Evoras in more senior national and international compeititons.

A Works Esprit team running in the major sportscar championships, hopefully subsidised by external sponsorship.

The link with the F1 team may be maintained if it can be done so affordably.

Dany Bahar's "Swizz Beats" debacle was poorly handled but was the right idea - to be more attractive to the average car buyer, Lotus needs to have a higher profile as a desirable, aspirational brand. This might offend purists, but its true. The key thing is in handling that sort of campaign properly - Bahar was too heavy-handed to do it properly. I'd hire a some proper PR people who can do this with a light touch.

[Twincam16]

forzaminardi said:

If I were in charge of Lotus, I'd do the following:

Product range:

Keep making the Elise as a no-frills reasonably affordable fun car for hardcore enthusiasts, update as necessary. Spin offs like the Exige as and when.

Develop the Evora to become a more convincing sports GT sort of car, primarily by improving the perceived quality and powertrain. The driving experience may be sacrificed as the expense of adding jeejaws, gadgets, soft-touch plastics etc in order to make the car more appealing to these type of buyers.

Continue with the new Esprit as an aspirational almost 'supercar' halo model. Tinker with this using hybrid power etc. to get a few headlines.

To make all of the above possible it might be necessary to ally with a major manufacturer for engines and technology. Also the above might not make much money. If so, a reciprocal arrangement of Lotus-fettled and badged 'normal' cars from said manufacturer would be good. The manufacturer would have to be one without a highly recognisable 'performance' sub-brand, so no Renault (Renaultsport), BMW (M) and so on. A Japanese or Korean brand might be perfect. Focus on making their more basic models 'sporty' and take a cut of the sales.

Marketing:

Organise official Lotus Elise-only race series in Europe, Asia and the USA and run these in conjunction with competitions to win a drive etc. These could be supported by races involving the 'other manufacturers' models or alongside existing categories.

Support independent teams who want to race Elises and Evoras in more senior national and international compeititons.

A Works Esprit team running in the major sportscar championships, hopefully subsidised by external sponsorship.

The link with the F1 team may be maintained if it can be done so affordably.

Dany Bahar's "Swizz Beats" debacle was poorly handled but was the right idea - to be more attractive to the average car buyer, Lotus needs to have a higher profile as a desirable, aspirational brand. This might offend purists, but its true. The key thing is in handling that sort of campaign properly - Bahar was too heavy-handed to do it properly. I'd hire a some proper PR people who can do this with a light touch.

Sounds pretty spot-on to me, although I might suggest that the Exige should be the car on which the race series is based. An Elise series wouldn't be sufficiently different to the Ginetta series and Lotus would have a mountain to climb to get the kind of media exposure and lucrative race-support status that Ginetta has forged. However, given that the Exige is being considered to be a cut-price alternative to the 911 GT3, it would slot neatly between the Ginetta Championship and the Porsche Supercup.

Looking at the potential product range's sales, I reckon their strengths and weaknesses are thus:

-Elise - Raved-about in S form, considered too expensive as a basic 1.6. Rationalise things by dropping te 'Elise' body and offering the 1.8S engine as an option in an entry-level Exige. The four-cylinder version could still be called the Elise though, to maintain continuity.

-Exige - I reckon this will be their biggest seller, especially in Roadster form. I can see a fair few people switching to it once they get bored of their GTRs and 911s. Cheaper to run than those cars too.

-Evora - No-one doubts it's a nice car to drive, but the market it's aimed at doesn't appreciate it. I think things could change with the convertible version as the market for drop-tops is considerably different. Without a roof it'll look even more exotic and extrovert. I reckon Lotus could sell loads in America. Develop the racing versions alongside it and offer a GTE road car, but make the convertible the main focus of Evora road-car production.

-New Esprit - Once the Esprit name returns to the range, the image of Lotus will be considerably elevated, I reckon. 'Lotus Esprit' is a byword for supercar in many markets. It's exotic.

So essentially that's a three-car lineup that could work well.

I'd add to that the need to form a partnership as a car firm's M/AMG/RenaultSport equivalent.

Once this is done, I reckon there's scope for an entry-level roadster. Engineered by Lotus and badged as such, but built alongside the saloons on a mass-production line, maybe abroad, so costs can be kept down. The target would be the MX5, and it would have to be RWD.