RE: Lotus five-car future is canned
Discussion
The Crack Fox said:
So many internet experts, so few customers in Lotus showrooms... 
Absolutely right.But you have to admit, those who were left aghast by Bahar's extravagant dreams appear to have been correct. The sad thing is that Evora was all wrong and reversed Lotus into a very tight corner. Bahar recognised that and thought he could spend his way out of it. Same mistake as Adam Applegarth (Northern Rock) and Gordon Brown. In the real world you need to deliver substance as well as hype. It will be a very good trick if Lotus can come back from this.
Just looking at Lotus' specs and price range, I reckon it'd make sense for them to drop all the non-supercharged models. The S-cars all give equivalent Porsches a kicking, the NA cars look overpriced.
A thought though - would their be any mileage in doing an ultra-basic Caterham-alike for £20k-25k? Elise chassis, one-piece LM-style clamshell body, perspex flyscreen, popper-fixed tonneau. Going up against the MX5 is a non-starter without big-name backing, but Caterham, Westfield and KTM on the other hand...
A thought though - would their be any mileage in doing an ultra-basic Caterham-alike for £20k-25k? Elise chassis, one-piece LM-style clamshell body, perspex flyscreen, popper-fixed tonneau. Going up against the MX5 is a non-starter without big-name backing, but Caterham, Westfield and KTM on the other hand...
Twincam16 said:
Just looking at Lotus' specs and price range, I reckon it'd make sense for them to drop all the non-supercharged models. The S-cars all give equivalent Porsches a kicking, the NA cars look overpriced.
A thought though - would their be any mileage in doing an ultra-basic Caterham-alike for £20k-25k? Elise chassis, one-piece LM-style clamshell body, perspex flyscreen, popper-fixed tonneau. Going up against the MX5 is a non-starter without big-name backing, but Caterham, Westfield and KTM on the other hand...
don't make it so hard, A thought though - would their be any mileage in doing an ultra-basic Caterham-alike for £20k-25k? Elise chassis, one-piece LM-style clamshell body, perspex flyscreen, popper-fixed tonneau. Going up against the MX5 is a non-starter without big-name backing, but Caterham, Westfield and KTM on the other hand...
re-launching the S1 almost as is, with a cheap Duratec engine, proper build quality and tidy-out the stupid bit's, get back down to as near 700Kg's as possible, price it at <£25K, I am pretty sure it would sell.
Scuffers said:
don't make it so hard,
re-launching the S1 almost as is, with a cheap Duratec engine, proper build quality and tidy-out the stupid bit's, get back down to as near 700Kg's as possible, price it at <£25K, I am pretty sure it would sell.
It's a thought - the S1 was profitable - but it'd look like a step back.re-launching the S1 almost as is, with a cheap Duratec engine, proper build quality and tidy-out the stupid bit's, get back down to as near 700Kg's as possible, price it at <£25K, I am pretty sure it would sell.
How about an S1 with a skeletal Atom/7-hybrid restyle? Not bothering with doors would make it even cheaper to build. These things sell too - look at Caterham. Lotus 2-7?
Sort-of. I was thinking, given that the S1 was much cheaper and more profitable to build, that Lotus could revisit it, but look at ways to make it even cheaper and simpler to build. Obviously if they went through that process the car wouldn't rival the MX5 directly, but it would be possible to sell it for £20k-25k.
If the marketing department made a lot of noise about Lotus 'going back to its roots' and the restyle was radical enough, it could work. Present it as a Caterham 7 Roadsport rival.
If the marketing department made a lot of noise about Lotus 'going back to its roots' and the restyle was radical enough, it could work. Present it as a Caterham 7 Roadsport rival.
Twincam16 said:
Sort-of. I was thinking, given that the S1 was much cheaper and more profitable to build, that Lotus could revisit it, but look at ways to make it even cheaper and simpler to build. Obviously if they went through that process the car wouldn't rival the MX5 directly, but it would be possible to sell it for £20k-25k.
If the marketing department made a lot of noise about Lotus 'going back to its roots' and the restyle was radical enough, it could work. Present it as a Caterham 7 Roadsport rival.
Their problem is that they need to shift units in their 1000s not 100s unless they can write off the debt. Or, unless much of their unit revenue is coming from badging other cars, as discussed. If the marketing department made a lot of noise about Lotus 'going back to its roots' and the restyle was radical enough, it could work. Present it as a Caterham 7 Roadsport rival.
DonkeyApple said:
Their problem is that they need to shift units in their 1000s not 100s unless they can write off the debt.
Perhaps, although I bet Caterham sell more 7s at £20k than Lotus sells Elise 1.6CRs for £30k.The Elise S will sell at £36k as it's very fast for the money. However, working with what they've got a simplified Lotus along the lines of the Elise S1 is more likely to get closer to volume production/sales on price alone, and will compare well to its rivals.
DonkeyApple said:
Twincam16 said:
Sort-of. I was thinking, given that the S1 was much cheaper and more profitable to build, that Lotus could revisit it, but look at ways to make it even cheaper and simpler to build. Obviously if they went through that process the car wouldn't rival the MX5 directly, but it would be possible to sell it for £20k-25k.
If the marketing department made a lot of noise about Lotus 'going back to its roots' and the restyle was radical enough, it could work. Present it as a Caterham 7 Roadsport rival.
Their problem is that they need to shift units in their 1000s not 100s unless they can write off the debt. Or, unless much of their unit revenue is coming from badging other cars, as discussed.If the marketing department made a lot of noise about Lotus 'going back to its roots' and the restyle was radical enough, it could work. Present it as a Caterham 7 Roadsport rival.
Caterhams market is nothing like big enough for Lotus (in their current form/size).
if they were to make S1's again, they need them to sell at least 3-4,000 PA and they will also still need 2+ other cars to sell in numbers.
this all comes back to is there a market for Lotus, and if yes, what is it?
Scuffers said:
Caterhams market is nothing like big enough for Lotus (in their current form/size).
Quite. Lotus HAVE to develop a road car which customers actually want to buy. IMO that will be a rebodied and re-dashboarded Evora N/A at a sensible (Boxster) price. Whether that can actually be achieved remains to be seen.Scuffers said:
I read somewhere that they have managed to cut Lotus day to day running costs down to £5M a month (from £7M+)
kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
Yup. When you're haemorrhaging that level of cash you need solid and large revenues with growth potential to even stand a chance of finding the margins to stay afloat. kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
I bet a large part of that cost is debt funding now.
They cannot possibly survive by selling niche sports cars, the numbers imply they can't survive selling sports cara full stop.
They need a volume product and fast.
Ozzies mention of rebodying the Evora makes sense. They need a more aggressive and asperational look for starters.
But even that cannot possibly sell in numbers to keep them afloat.
They have a big problem. A very big problem.
Scuffers said:
I read somewhere that they have managed to cut Lotus day to day running costs down to £5M a month (from £7M+)
kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
No cars at all if you have £60M in engineering contracts from third parties.kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
I've worked with a few ex-Lotus engineers who go mental when people forget about the other side of the business.
Captain Muppet said:
Scuffers said:
I read somewhere that they have managed to cut Lotus day to day running costs down to £5M a month (from £7M+)
kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
No cars at all if you have £60M in engineering contracts from third parties.kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
I've worked with a few ex-Lotus engineers who go mental when people forget about the other side of the business.
i hate to think how many cars they would need to sell to service the interest on the 500m they owe
Dave Hedgehog said:
someone in one of these threads said that the engineering firm was a separate entity from the car manufacturer and that it has been sold?
They must have it confused with the F1 team. They're based in different buildings, but the money from the cars and engineering both goes into the same coffers.Captain Muppet said:
Scuffers said:
I read somewhere that they have managed to cut Lotus day to day running costs down to £5M a month (from £7M+)
kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
No cars at all if you have £60M in engineering contracts from third parties.kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
I've worked with a few ex-Lotus engineers who go mental when people forget about the other side of the business.
Lotus Engineering had had an uphill battle ever since Proton brought them, they have lost a lot of their staple diet work to others.
and remember, this is 60+M to effectively stand still....
Scuffers said:
Captain Muppet said:
Scuffers said:
I read somewhere that they have managed to cut Lotus day to day running costs down to £5M a month (from £7M+)
kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
No cars at all if you have £60M in engineering contracts from third parties.kind of put's it in context, how many cars do you need to make/sell to cover £5M/month?
I've worked with a few ex-Lotus engineers who go mental when people forget about the other side of the business.
Lotus Engineering had had an uphill battle ever since Proton brought them, they have lost a lot of their staple diet work to others.
and remember, this is 60+M to effectively stand still....
Lotus is a firm that needs to be owned by a larger, more mainstream company in order to do well. Chapman knew this which is why, at the time of his death, he was trying to sell up to Toyota. Even though they made a few mistakes, General Motors knew this too.
Proton just isn't the right owner for Lotus. Their cars aren't sufficiently expensive to be sold as Lotus-tuned hot hatches (IMO they'd have to go for a complete inside-and-out restyle and Lotus badges and names if they wanted a crack at the RenaultSport Megane), nor do they sell in the kind of echelons that would allow an M5 rival to make sense.
So, either Proton really gets their act together and allows Lotus to design them a small range of cars that really would compete with Europe's absolute best - I'm talking up there with the Ford Focus, with a Lotus ST equivalent - or sells them to someone who can appreciate and use them to good effect.
I do wonder whether Nissan are sizing them up. In the current issue of Autocar it reports that Lotus could build the new Emerg-E and the new Renault Alpine at Hethel on the Evora platform. If sales of those cars take off, that could prove the lifesaver they need. It also means they can dump the Evora without the work that went into it going to waste, then Lotus can concentrate on an Elise/Exige/Esprit lineup.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/lotus-c...
Edited by Twincam16 on Monday 13th August 14:14
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