|
TomTVR500
209 posts
30 months
|
don logan said: In 20yrs time I can see myself having to find great condition "old" manual cars because I won't want anything that will be available new / up to 5yrs old by then! This is exactly why whatever 2nd car I buy I intend to keep my Clio 182 Cup forever and a day. It is just brilliant fun!
|
|
|
Perd Hapley
1,438 posts
42 months
|
I don't buy this argument that manuals are 'outdated' or 'obsolete'. Sure, modern autos are very impressive but they're complex and expensive. A manual gearbox is still cheap, simple, efficient and easy to use.
|
|
|
don logan
817 posts
91 months
|
TomTVR500 said: don logan said: In 20yrs time I can see myself having to find great condition "old" manual cars because I won't want anything that will be available new / up to 5yrs old by then! This is exactly why whatever 2nd car I buy I intend to keep my Clio 182 Cup forever and a day. It is just brilliant fun! SNAP, I own half a 182 Cup :-) funny little things aren't they, I don't think we will see such a quick car in such a small package again! The newest version looks like it's going to be MASSIVE! :-(
|
|
|
Caulkhead
4,938 posts
26 months
|
300bhp/ton said: Caulkhead said: Having said all that, I think it's great that the numbers are rising and there are many real enthusiasts over there who are now seeing a 'stick-shift' as a badge of commitment to petrolhead, err, ness!  Pretty much all American performance cars are available with a manual shift, sometimes exclusively so with no auto option. Unlike the UK/Europe where we seem to be getting more and more auto's or auto shifting manuals. It's a start, but they need to buy more of them. My American mate visited last year (he's a petrolhead with a Corvette and a an F150 Raptor) but even he's still a bit wary of a manual and was most impressed with my 75 year old mum being able to pootle about in my LR SIII with a no synchro 1st & 2nd SII box (long story). 
|
|
|
mollytherocker
6,924 posts
78 months
|
Twincam16 said: I wonder if any of it's down to this guy:  as I can't imagine him driving the way he does in an automatic. The way he's tapped into the whole extreme-sports crowd may well mean more younger American drivers are learning on manuals rather than autos, perhaps? I havent seen him drive a manual? All of the cars he used in those vids are sequentials. MTR
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
TomTVR500
209 posts
30 months
|
don logan said: SNAP, I own half a 182 Cup :-) funny little things aren't they, I don't think we will see such a quick car in such a small package again!
The newest version looks like it's going to be MASSIVE! :-( Ah well done! Another man of impeccable taste  They are cracking little cars. Guaranteed to bring a smile to your face and while the straight line performance is fairly wide of the mark by today’s standards they are bloody quick. If the new one is DSG only, 5 door only and forced induction I will have a little cry...... then go and drive mine to make the world feel right again  My problem with the current 200 Cup is it is to my mind probably too grippy (because the 182 is too grippy for the visibility of most b roads) it is too sure footed making it less fun at moderate speeds and the fact that the interior space feels huge! I still love the 200 though, don't get me wrong. I just prefer the old school feel of the 182.
|
|
|
vsonix
1,072 posts
32 months
|
I didn't know about the US getting manual E60s but not Europe. That just strikes me as outright bizarre. And F10s too..? What is going on in Europe? Why are we being dictated to like this? Is it purely down to CO2 emissions being lower with zillion-speed autoboxes?
|
|
|
redtwin
5,862 posts
51 months
|
R12HCO said: Maybe they are realising that manuals could use less fuel? That was my initial thought as well. Fuel prices there are quite high now (three times what it was when I left) and as much as I love big V8 trucks with autoboxes, I would be seriously considering a smaller economical manual if I were to move back. Just not seeing the point in paying that much money for fuel if I could avoid it.
|
|
|
don logan
817 posts
91 months
|
TomTVR500 said: don logan said: SNAP, I own half a 182 Cup :-) funny little things aren't they, I don't think we will see such a quick car in such a small package again!
The newest version looks like it's going to be MASSIVE! :-( Ah well done! Another man of impeccable taste  They are cracking little cars. Guaranteed to bring a smile to your face and while the straight line performance is fairly wide of the mark by today’s standards they are bloody quick. If the new one is DSG only, 5 door only and forced induction I will have a little cry...... then go and drive mine to make the world feel right again  My problem with the current 200 Cup is it is to my mind probably too grippy (because the 182 is too grippy for the visibility of most b roads) it is too sure footed making it less fun at moderate speeds and the fact that the interior space feels huge! I still love the 200 though, don't get me wrong. I just prefer the old school feel of the 182. Funny you should say that because I have an R26.R (a whole one) and there have been times when I've thought that the 182 is actually more fun, the 182 has just had all new suspension and is driving very sweetly now, I'm even thinking of giving it a cosmetic "makeover" (standard spec) because after 20k miles I love it more and more and am more and more attached to it!
|
|
|
binberme
56 posts
92 months
|
jas xjr said: my yank cousin always buys stick shift because it means nobody else can drive his car especially his wife I luv that comment, but it is really close to the unfortunate truth though.... Sadly this comment matches the truth on the ground today, not the world I learned to drive in ~4 decades ago. In that would we went from Regular gas @ $0.19-0.25 as gal to $0.75-0.80 a gal over night in 73-74. Everyone I knew was driving 6-12 mpgUS big 4 gas guzzler in late 1973 with a slushbox automatic. But by mid 1974 they all had switched to either a German or Asian model with a manual trans that had little trouble brushing up against 30 mpgUS. The fall of the manual in the US can be laid out in a little history background.....In the mid 80s( 1985/1986 ) gas & diesel dropped from $1.30-1.50 a gal down to below $0.90( as low as $0.75 in my part of the US ) a gal when world oil prices crashed. Around the same time the US abandoned CAFE, the US energy policy that had reduced transport oil consumption by 75% in the 9 years it had force of law. This policy forced auto makers to sell a certain number of, not just offer manual trans options to bring up fleet CAFE. In 1987 model year the first year without CAFE the US fleet mpg average dropped from a high close to 40 mpgUS to 26 mpgUS where it has stayed for the last 2 3/4 decades. When the abuse of the SUV/Truck loophole real US CAFE dropped into the single digits by 2004 model year. Here is the reason for the current upsurge of manual offerings;... With the coming in law increase of CAFE beginning in 2014 to 54.5 mpgUS by 2025 auto makers are being required once again to offer the manual trans options to bring their CAFE in line with law requirements. I have taught some 60 drivers, many girlfriends/several wives to row their own gears over the last 3 1/2 decades. I refused to be stuck somewhere with a significant other that couldn't take the wheel when I was incapacitated or when they really needed to be able to drive in an emergency!! Most on the road in the USA today have no clue how a automatic or manual trans even works much less how to row their gears. So the ones that are actually looking for a manual are only the hardcore drivers like me and drivers looking for maximum mpgs over the life of their purchase. Also there are a fair amount out there that are looking specifically for a manual to assure of a longer service life without a required auto trans rebuild in the 100-150k mile range. Because of the recent US propensity to go with automatics I have been shamefully forced to have my two current main drivers be automatic, which I hate and complain about whenever given the chance. I manually shift the things at every opportunity to improve mpgs and to save the brakes....I am hoping that with the coming in law rise in required CAFE rules more manual trans models will be available when I purchase next.... LOng Live the Manual!!
|
|
|
TomTVR500
209 posts
30 months
|
don logan said: TomTVR500 said: don logan said: SNAP, I own half a 182 Cup :-) funny little things aren't they, I don't think we will see such a quick car in such a small package again!
The newest version looks like it's going to be MASSIVE! :-( Ah well done! Another man of impeccable taste  They are cracking little cars. Guaranteed to bring a smile to your face and while the straight line performance is fairly wide of the mark by today’s standards they are bloody quick. If the new one is DSG only, 5 door only and forced induction I will have a little cry...... then go and drive mine to make the world feel right again  My problem with the current 200 Cup is it is to my mind probably too grippy (because the 182 is too grippy for the visibility of most b roads) it is too sure footed making it less fun at moderate speeds and the fact that the interior space feels huge! I still love the 200 though, don't get me wrong. I just prefer the old school feel of the 182. Funny you should say that because I have an R26.R (a whole one) and there have been times when I've thought that the 182 is actually more fun, the 182 has just had all new suspension and is driving very sweetly now, I'm even thinking of giving it a cosmetic "makeover" (standard spec) because after 20k miles I love it more and more and am more and more attached to it! Very nice! I am jealous, a whole one too  . I am seriously considering an R26.R as my next venture. It's a strange one isn't it. The car that objectively is the worse car can sometimes be the one that delivers the most fun out on the road. Although I am sure the R26.R is at times, pretty damn brilliant. I did the same thing. I just bought it as a fun daily driver for very little money (even at 22k miles) but the more I drive it and the more I hear myself talk about it I realise just how attached to it I have become. It's a keeper! I intend to keep it mint and refurbing the suspension is definitely on the list. The only modification is a sports exhaust as the old one decided to snap just after the cat. However I have to say, it has added a welcome new dimension to the little Clio. It sounds great 
|
|
|
SR
41 posts
74 months
|
TomTVR500 said: Hahahaha had me in stitches Me too!!
|
|
|
redgriff500
6,972 posts
132 months
|
thewheelman said: Are the English really that stupid to think that Americans don't buy manuals? Go on any American car related website, open your eyes! Yeah when it was only 96.1% that didn't buy manuals
|
|
|
BigBen
6,512 posts
99 months
|
redgriff500 said: thewheelman said: Are the English really that stupid to think that Americans don't buy manuals? Go on any American car related website, open your eyes! Yeah when it was only 96.1% that didn't buy manuals But 3.9% is still a huge number of cars, don't you even understand simple percentages 
|
|
|
redgriff500
6,972 posts
132 months
|
BigBen said: redgriff500 said: thewheelman said: Are the English really that stupid to think that Americans don't buy manuals? Go on any American car related website, open your eyes! Yeah when it was only 96.1% that didn't buy manuals But 3.9% is still a huge number of cars, don't you even understand simple percentages  I understand that 96.1% is a far, far, far bigger number. 
|
|
|
EBruce
169 posts
37 months
|
Count me in. An American petrolhead driving a British manual coupe!!
|
|
|
Mr Whippy
17,900 posts
110 months
|
When I were a lad at school you were labelled a gay if you couldn't pass your test in a manual car and had the automatic one  My current Z4 isn't really super fast, powerful or torquey, but I can happily set off in 2nd, then go to 4th/6th and be pushing the general flow of traffic along. I can be in 6th from 30-70mph and accelerate quickly enough for most traffic conditions. I really don't get why you'd want an automatic unless you'd lost the use of one leg or couldn't get the non-gay drivers license, or do oodles of stop/start driving, or of course you have a car that suits that style but hot hatches and stuff really are not that style imo. I think people have just become terminally boring likely because they drive horrible commutes and forget what their cars are really for a lot of the time. It looks like the US customers are perhaps waking up to the fact that anything that adds some interest or involvement actually makes boring journeys more interesting! Dave
|
|
|
BBL-Sean
191 posts
45 months
|
R12HCO said: Maybe they are realising that manuals could use less fuel? Based on the US EPA mileage estimates for most new cars today, the difference between a manual and an automatic is very little. That's IF a manual is even available as an option. It is worth noting that mileage estimates in the US are typically very different to those in Europe due to (I've read somewhere) different regulations of their calculation.
|
|
|
71tuscan
68 posts
51 months
|
snuffy said: thewheelman said: doogz said: thewheelman said: I'm not sure you could call 3.9% of car sales in the U.S. as "very few cars" & that figure has already more than doubled for this year. Compared to 96.1, 3.9 is very few. Compared to 93, 7 is still a few. How pedantic  You still don't get the concept that figure still represents in the hundreds of thousands, or even possibly more, actual car sales. It's pedantic, it's true. That's not what pedantic means anyway. 4 out out every 100 cars is a small amount. Yes, it's hundreds of thousands as you say, but that's out of millions. So there are a large number of manual cars, but there are a much, much larger number of automatic cars. So it's a small number in the total. In fact, that's why we use percentages; expressing things in percentages are very handy for comparing on thing against the other !! The essence is, that the small percentage (hundreds of thousands) of american purists are enough to save the existance of the RWD manual box. If you exclude all the FWD manual gearboxes out of the European statistics, the number will be completely different. Over here, FWD manuals are most commonly used to cut production costs. In the USA it is just too natural to have an automatic, so all manufacturers produce their 'standard' cars with auto boxes. And the difference will become completely dramatic if the rumours about BMW are true. If they really stop equipping cars with manual boxes, the European percentage of manual RWD boxes will be less than 1%. I sincerely hope that all PDK, DSG, SMG, etc. owners face enormous repair costs, so they'll open their eyes. In the last few years it seems that a lot of 'petrolheads' choose Nurnburgring lap times over driving pleasure. Well, now the European sportscar is dead. Just because of posh flappy pedal boxes, launch control and all sorts of driving aids.
|
|
|
PanzerCommander
2,703 posts
87 months
|
redtwin said: That was my initial thought as well. Fuel prices there are quite high now (three times what it was when I left) and as much as I love big V8 trucks with autoboxes, I would be seriously considering a smaller economical manual if I were to move back.
Just not seeing the point in paying that much money for fuel if I could avoid it. They don't use that much less fuel though. Focus ST 1300kg + driver manual 2.5l turbo 225bhp day to day 24mpg Mustang GT 1580kg + driver automatic 4.6l N/A 300bhp day to day 20mpg Given the near 300kg weight increase (large engine block for a 4.6 and auto box to blame) I don't think that the extra fuel used can be all attributed to the automatic (yes it is a slush box - electronically controlled maybe but it is still a slush box). I used to be a staunch manual gearbox driver, always swore I would never own an automatic, they were (a direct quote from me) "for fat lazy people and those with disabilities" then due to a knee injury I test drove the Mustang with one, and now, knee injury or not I'd never have another manual gearbox if I could help it. Unless I bought something like a Caterham etc where frankly an automatic (other than a sequential 'manual') would be rubbish and would stifle the car (same with a lot of smaller cars really). People who like performance cars in the US seem to think that the manual gearbox is king, (this is easily visable by the over emphasis of the gear shifting on films like F&F) load of tosh unless you are circuit racing and even then an SMG/DSG is far superior to a stock manual, they shift quicker than any human can and when it actually matters in a race you don't want to lose time so you go for the fastest best option. This manual gearbox obsession grates on me because it stops me from owning cars like the GT500, without going through the great expense of removing the manual gearbox binning it and fitting an automatic in its place - put it this way I drove a hire Transit Luton Van at the weekend to help a friend move house and covered no more than 10 miles, I wasn’t stuck in slow moving traffic at any point that meant lots of gear shifting. My knee ached from pumping the clutch for a couple of days afterwards and the transit clutch isn’t exactly heavy  For drag racing there are really only two ways to go, conventional automatic or a Lenco, a manual gearbox on the drag strip is nothing more than a handicap.
|
|