RE: Chris Harris video: GT86 vs 370Z vs Cayman
Discussion
RossP said:
I like the GT86 and test drove one recently but found it just too slow.
Gibbo205 said:
The GT86 is a great car, I've driven one, but it is way too slow...
Whenever I see comments about cars being 'too slow' (happens a lot to the GT86, it seems) it always reminds me of a motorbike article: a rider on a 140bhp Fireblade against a racer on a 33bhp RS125 - the racer was a second faster around Snetterton (well suited to more powerful vehicles).So, maybe it's not the car that's slow, maybe the driver doesn't know how to drive it properly
If your going to do used comparisons, I hope the include a used 997 Turbo against a new Cayman S.
After all, why spend 50k on a "poor mans Porsche"?
In fact, why not include a 996 Turbo in this test? Its a sports car that you can buy for 28k.
New cars have long warranties, can go on company car policies, and new-car finance deals. Used cars....don't. Used cars just shouldnt be compared to new, most people who buy new cars wouldnt consider used.
After all, why spend 50k on a "poor mans Porsche"?
In fact, why not include a 996 Turbo in this test? Its a sports car that you can buy for 28k.
New cars have long warranties, can go on company car policies, and new-car finance deals. Used cars....don't. Used cars just shouldnt be compared to new, most people who buy new cars wouldnt consider used.
Good video Chris,
I sat in one in the showroom the other day, they are tiny in a toy car way and the rear seats are totally useless. The 300zx and Supra have more space in the rear!
It looks fun on a flowing road with no traffic, but in the real world, that flow would be impeded by traffic and surely that is where the slow 0-60 and lowly output becomes most apparent. How frustrating is it to not have the power to safely overtake?I think the novelty would wear off quickly and can see this car, like the MX5, becoming a bird car, destined to be a sporty housewives toy. Still, thanks to the tuning market they'll make nice track toys in years to come with HKS and the likes making superchargers for them.
On the flipside, cheap tax and fuel is the biggest draw and its great to have that in an involving package. So really, it'll probably appeal to a similar market the MR2 did. Its great to see toyota moving in the right direction. Me, I can't wait for the Supra...when they eventually get around to building it. The last Supra is one of my all time favourite cars with legendary reliability, buy a used one of these instead, if you can stomach the fuel bills lol...back full circle ho hum...
I sat in one in the showroom the other day, they are tiny in a toy car way and the rear seats are totally useless. The 300zx and Supra have more space in the rear!
It looks fun on a flowing road with no traffic, but in the real world, that flow would be impeded by traffic and surely that is where the slow 0-60 and lowly output becomes most apparent. How frustrating is it to not have the power to safely overtake?I think the novelty would wear off quickly and can see this car, like the MX5, becoming a bird car, destined to be a sporty housewives toy. Still, thanks to the tuning market they'll make nice track toys in years to come with HKS and the likes making superchargers for them.
On the flipside, cheap tax and fuel is the biggest draw and its great to have that in an involving package. So really, it'll probably appeal to a similar market the MR2 did. Its great to see toyota moving in the right direction. Me, I can't wait for the Supra...when they eventually get around to building it. The last Supra is one of my all time favourite cars with legendary reliability, buy a used one of these instead, if you can stomach the fuel bills lol...back full circle ho hum...
hygt2 said:
The roads, and especially the corners, look fantastic and the scenery magnificent. I know it is Wales and include the certain triangle but would any one shine some light on which sections of roads in Wales that might be (besides the certain triangle)? Thanks in advance!!
Yes, was going to ask the same thing.Anyone know?
Dagnut said:
redgriff500 said:
Well why stop at a £16k Cayman then, why not a Ferrari 355 available at around the same price as a new GT86.
Why not a 911? Its closer comparison with rear seats..if its just 2 seaters what about an Elise?..surely that's closer in spirit ...the lists could go on and on...pointless comparing used with new/.. especially one which will cost twice as much to run and insure.. probably 4 times as much to service.
SWoll said:
It's a perfectly acceptable comparison AFAIAK and it the decision I'm sure the majority of PH'ers make everytime they buy a car.
Anyone with £25-30k to spend on a sports coupe would be daft not to consider all options available to them. I agree that comparing it to a 10+ year old 5K car would be pointless though.
That's interesting, I've bought a new car on two occasions and never once considered a 2nd hand alternative. When I bought a new CTR I didn't even think about a used M3 or other performance car although I was pretty focused on what I wanted.Anyone with £25-30k to spend on a sports coupe would be daft not to consider all options available to them. I agree that comparing it to a 10+ year old 5K car would be pointless though.
Ok we're talking £25-30k but the thought process is the same. If you're in the market for a new car then the thought process is completely different to looking at the 2nd hand market.
Ultimately I don't know of anyone that would even put Porsche and Toyota in the same sentence in any case. I know a few Porsche owners (Cayman, 911) and a Toyota would never even be on the radar. I'm the kind of person that would buy a Toyota but none of my mates 'get' Japanese cars unless they want a Rav4 to lug the kids about.
£28k? You can get a very nice 996 Turbo for that, never mind a Cayman.
I really like the idea of the GT86, and the simple performance numbers aren't that bad. The key issue is lack of torque and subsequent lack of over taking ability. It might be a great car at 10/10th's on an empty winding Welsh b road, but most of us don't live in the middle of Wales.
Oh, and another top class video, Chris.
I really like the idea of the GT86, and the simple performance numbers aren't that bad. The key issue is lack of torque and subsequent lack of over taking ability. It might be a great car at 10/10th's on an empty winding Welsh b road, but most of us don't live in the middle of Wales.
Oh, and another top class video, Chris.
xRIEx said:
RossP said:
I like the GT86 and test drove one recently but found it just too slow.
Gibbo205 said:
The GT86 is a great car, I've driven one, but it is way too slow...
Whenever I see comments about cars being 'too slow' (happens a lot to the GT86, it seems) it always reminds me of a motorbike article: a rider on a 140bhp Fireblade against a racer on a 33bhp RS125 - the racer was a second faster around Snetterton (well suited to more powerful vehicles).So, maybe it's not the car that's slow, maybe the driver doesn't know how to drive it properly
I loved the GT86 when i drove one a few weeks ago and was very tempted to replace my mx5 daily driver with one, but i went for a used 350z instead obvioulsy much cheaper to buy but my main reason was i just couldnt justify the unknown residules of the GT86. But give it a year or 2 and i will have one i really loved it!
Dagnut said:
Are you seriously defending the use of used cars in a group test? In this group test?
Do you honestly believe people going to the Toyota forecourt are debating a used Cayman? You obviously have no idea who this car is aimed at.
I researched all forum responses to the original GT86 video, all Twitter activity and personal emails I've received. People wanted to see 370Z and used Cayman S, plain and simple.Do you honestly believe people going to the Toyota forecourt are debating a used Cayman? You obviously have no idea who this car is aimed at.
If you think a coupe-punter with £28k to spend wouldn't look at a used Cayman, I suspect you might be in the minority.
In fact PHers can help here.
Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?
If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
Dagnut said:
Your missing the point of the GT86...it's an all rounder...the Porsche is a second car or single mans daily
Well that's ok, you don't need to keep going on about it.You like the Toyota because you need something practical, just to get you from A to B, and we like the Porsche because it's better.
Dagnut said:
redgriff500 said:
Well why stop at a £16k Cayman then, why not a Ferrari 355 available at around the same price as a new GT86.
if you couldn't afford a Cayman new chances are you couldn't afford to run a used one.Chris Harris said:
I researched all forum responses to the original GT86 video, all Twitter activity and personal emails I've received. People wanted to see 370Z and used Cayman S, plain and simple.
If you think a coupe-punter with £28k to spend wouldn't look at a used Cayman, I suspect you might be in the minority.
In fact PHers can help here.
Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?
If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
Totally Agree with you. This is what real world people are thinking. New Toyota or second hand Porsche. It has been a long time for the magazines and people to cotton onto some of the real world choices people are making.If you think a coupe-punter with £28k to spend wouldn't look at a used Cayman, I suspect you might be in the minority.
In fact PHers can help here.
Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?
If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
Get a Porsche warranty and it could well be a good way to spend your money, and have something 'a bit special'/'out of the ordinary' on the drive.
It sounds like the GT86 is a bit 205 GTI like, and that has to be a good thing in this day and age, and must be applauded......But it had better be good to tempt people away from spending 26K+ on a second hand Porsche.
Great stuff, a real world test to reflect what the buying public are thinking
Ian
P.S. Boxster if you want roof off action, or 911 for the four seats, all available for 26K from your local up market car dealer.
I'm sorry Chris, but you seem to have based your opinion of the GT86 on both the car's intangible characteristics (please see your recent Porsche GT3 article for your views on these!), and its performance on the limit (albeit also on the road) where due to either a lack of skill or a fear of losing their license nobody drives. You have let these things completely outweigh the benefits of all of the things 99% of people, petrolheads included, value in a car.
To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from most other angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter torque curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from most other angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter torque curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Edited by TTGuy on Wednesday 15th August 21:48
Chris Harris said:
Dagnut said:
Are you seriously defending the use of used cars in a group test? In this group test?
Do you honestly believe people going to the Toyota forecourt are debating a used Cayman? You obviously have no idea who this car is aimed at.
I researched all forum responses to the original GT86 video, all Twitter activity and personal emails I've received. People wanted to see 370Z and used Cayman S, plain and simple.Do you honestly believe people going to the Toyota forecourt are debating a used Cayman? You obviously have no idea who this car is aimed at.
If you think a coupe-punter with £28k to spend wouldn't look at a used Cayman, I suspect you might be in the minority.
In fact PHers can help here.
Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?
If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
Great video review, one of your best!! Now to the people who are missing the point of the video and the GT86 completely, firstly the Cayman is a great car and yes should be a consideration when looking for a RWD sports coupe, but unless companies make new cars like the GT86 then you wouldnt have second hand ones to buy or consider in the first place, just think of the great second hand value in 3 years of a GT86!!
As for the GT86 itself, the car is about driving fun, making the driver feel like a hero at 50mph - being a little sensible with very usable back seats and sensible boot size, sensible running costs but your able to take it on a twisty B road and smile till your face falls off!!! Its not about outright pace its about enjoying the drive and the journey - not getting there as quickly as possible!! Its a very clever, back to old school, RWD car - no one cried about a E30 M3 having under 200bhp, yes things have moved on - but an M3 is still a great car and everyone still loves them!!!! And finally to correct the video, the base car is £24,995, met paint is optional at £450 and you get the entertainment unit as standard its just the Nav is a £750 software upgrade. The standard seats are identical to the ones in the video and are just as perfect, they are just not heated or finished in half leather and Chris did say he loved the 370 having cloth anyway!! so you can have all that fun for under 25k.
As for the GT86 itself, the car is about driving fun, making the driver feel like a hero at 50mph - being a little sensible with very usable back seats and sensible boot size, sensible running costs but your able to take it on a twisty B road and smile till your face falls off!!! Its not about outright pace its about enjoying the drive and the journey - not getting there as quickly as possible!! Its a very clever, back to old school, RWD car - no one cried about a E30 M3 having under 200bhp, yes things have moved on - but an M3 is still a great car and everyone still loves them!!!! And finally to correct the video, the base car is £24,995, met paint is optional at £450 and you get the entertainment unit as standard its just the Nav is a £750 software upgrade. The standard seats are identical to the ones in the video and are just as perfect, they are just not heated or finished in half leather and Chris did say he loved the 370 having cloth anyway!! so you can have all that fun for under 25k.
Chris Harris said:
Dagnut said:
Are you seriously defending the use of used cars in a group test? In this group test?
Do you honestly believe people going to the Toyota forecourt are debating a used Cayman? You obviously have no idea who this car is aimed at.
I researched all forum responses to the original GT86 video, all Twitter activity and personal emails I've received. People wanted to see 370Z and used Cayman S, plain and simple.Do you honestly believe people going to the Toyota forecourt are debating a used Cayman? You obviously have no idea who this car is aimed at.
If you think a coupe-punter with £28k to spend wouldn't look at a used Cayman, I suspect you might be in the minority.
In fact PHers can help here.
Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?
If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
Best of all, the buyer can make their own mind up, we don't insist you buy used if you don't want to.
TTGuy said:
I'm sorry Chris, but you seem to have based your opinion of the GT86 on both the car's intangible characteristics (please see your recent Porsche GT3 article for your views on these!), its performance on the limit (albeit also on the road) where due to either a lack of skill or a fear of losing their license nobody drives. You have let these things completely outweigh the benefits of all of the things 99% of people, petrolheads included, value in a car.
To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from others angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter yield curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Hands-up, I don't understand any of that.To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from others angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter yield curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Thanks for enjoying the vid!
Chris Harris said:
Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?
If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
Me. If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
Bought a 7k mile Clio200 last yr (I almost bought a brand new one).
Some years ago bought a TVR new, which I've kept.
Also bought several 6-10yr old quick cars, before buying I've always done the new 'tech & reliability' vs. 'older better value' analysis before deciding.
Edited by tail slide on Wednesday 15th August 21:50
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