Johnboy Mac said:
What a disservice to both Lancia and owners calling it a hot hatch, so what you are basically saying is the 8V Integale from '87 with 185bhp t/charged engine & 4x4 was in essence a Pug 205 Gti or a VW Golf Gti (both considered in that era as the definitive hot hatches - far lower power, n/a, fwd & importantly cheaper than the Integale)? Not to mention the 16V, EvoI & EvoII versions, the limited production numbers & Lancia's focus on rallying with the car. It also brings into question why those Gti owners myself included aspired to own an Integale when we already had a Pug, Golf etc? Glad, now I stuck with the Golf as clearly by your comments the expensive Lancia was a Golf!
Then again of course I could be totally wrong, after all I bought one car thinking it was basically DTM spec, yes as you said, ''obviously getting confused''!
What should Lancia call it?
What I'm saying is the Lancia Delta built from 1979 to 1994 was a Hatch back. All Hf models are hot hatch variants of the luxury hatch. From the first carburetted Hf turbo of 1984 to its final evolution in 1993 (last lot sold in 94). Here is a chart to help you see the progress over the years, there was a huge jump in power and grip with the Hf 4WD, this was still a production car and still a hatch back:
Before Group B was banned (delta S4), and group S binned, Lancia already had the Delta with 4wd production ready. Regardless of whether group B remained the Delta was going to be offered with 4wd. This was its next evolution. This was the next step from the Hf Turbo i.e.
hot hatch was the Renault 5 Gordini.
The Golf GTi was considered the definitive hot hatch between 1976 and 1983 in many peoples eyes. Personally I always preferred the Gordini/ Gordini turbo. Much more power and fun.
The Golf's evolution stopped with the 1800. Mk2 was a bit watered down and took many years for the 16v to be launched and it always lagged behind its competitors, too little too late.
The 205 was also a great car, this took the crown from the Golf, again, not because it was the quickest, but because of how it drove.
The 205 was a different size class to the Golf. The 205 was in the Fiesta/Polo class. Its most direct competitor was the Fiesta Xr2 range. The 1.6 was a direct target for the Xr2i and the 1.9 for the RS Turbo.
The Golf was in the same size class as the Lancia Delta and the Ford Escort.
The Golf was a good car but was it the definitive hot hatch? Not in my eyes, and it didn't even start the hot hatch thing as everyone seems to gloss up.
As for the 205, yes, love it, great car, and much better than the Xr2.
If we're keeping things in the 80's, the Golf stopped evolving with the G60, the 205 with the 1.9 Roland Gaross or whatever.
They are all hot hatches just like Lancia's integrale 16v which saw out the end of the decade.
The Lancia was £16k I remember that cause it wasn't far off the price of my dads Granada ghia. (I tried to persuade him to buy one but he was in the Lancias rust engines fall out camp).
There's always going to be one car more expensive than another. Especially when the development within them is so far removed. the VW and Pug were stone age in comparison to what Lancia were throwing out of the factory.
I can't be bothered raking out my old magazines from my garage loft but there will be big differences in price between the GT turbo, Gordini, Xr2i, 205 ,Golf, 106 rallye etc etc.
Golfs were also produced in limited numbers, the Pirelli special edition and the campaign.
My dad had a Granada special edition, that didn't make it a super car. The Lancia specials are nothing more than different colour leather seats and different paint work. The engines and drivetrain/chassis remained the same.
Lancia has always rallied. They have always been involved in rallying. The only reason a Delta was put on the track was because group B was banned and they had to use a car which had sold 5000 units to the public. Hyper cars were out. If they had a coupe kicking around with a 4wd chassis they would have put that on the track. They didn't they had a HATCH BACK. Lancia were always very innovative and ahead of their competitors in many aspects of motoring.
They were not the only company delving in all wheel drive hot hatches, Mazda were at it too with the 323.
So if AWD is an unfair advantage where does it stop? I couldn't afford a 205 GTi or a Golf Gti in the 80's, I had a Renault 5 Mk1 and a Lancia Delta 1300LX, I aspired to own a Gordini turbo or a Delta Hf integrale.
I wasn't interested in the Golf GTi or the the Pug.