RE: PH Fleet: Porsche Panamera Diesel
Discussion
toppstuff said:
A big issue occurred to me that we are letting go without Chris offering comment..
Now if I had 3 kids, Mrs TS would simply not accept the reasoning for a practical car that only allowed the family to go out with 2 of the kids.
Choosing which child to leave behind would be a source of some marital stress. And apparently its even against some kind of law. It's one of the reasons why I sometimes prefer dogs to children ( oh the joys of internet anonymity !) but it does make one question the Chris Harris decision making progress.
Taking the family out is a binary process when you have children. They either all come with you, or none of them come with you and drive alone. The Panamera is therefore no more practical than a 911, surely?
How does Chris rationalise this and convince himself that he would not have been better off with a BMW 530D Touring? Or did his favourite Porsche salesmen bamboozle him?
We need to be told.
Absolutely true. This couldn't be my sole means of family transport. Now if I had 3 kids, Mrs TS would simply not accept the reasoning for a practical car that only allowed the family to go out with 2 of the kids.
Choosing which child to leave behind would be a source of some marital stress. And apparently its even against some kind of law. It's one of the reasons why I sometimes prefer dogs to children ( oh the joys of internet anonymity !) but it does make one question the Chris Harris decision making progress.
Taking the family out is a binary process when you have children. They either all come with you, or none of them come with you and drive alone. The Panamera is therefore no more practical than a 911, surely?
How does Chris rationalise this and convince himself that he would not have been better off with a BMW 530D Touring? Or did his favourite Porsche salesmen bamboozle him?
We need to be told.
carnut360 said:
well its a car that certainly has grown on my still not sure about the rear but then again didn't much like the 928..BUT..why not choose the Cayenne Diesel, i bought mine fully speced and only paid 55k it does around 40 mpg on uk journeys or when i drive to switzerland does 36mpg...i even towed my caterham to brands hatch and back on a trailer and it did 31 mpg.
Its so comfortable great long distance cruiser and pretty nippy to overall i would definatly recomend the cayenne diesel over the panamera as its also 4wd.
buy one and you will be hooked!
Not sure about the new cayenne but the old one was surprisingly not very roomy in the back, and the 4wd is hardly a deal breaker as you can get a cayenne in 4wd. Not sure why i'd rule other cars out because they aren't 4wd either, never had a problem, winter tyres on 2wd are almost always better than normal tyres 4wd. As my mate with a b7 RS4 says.... His RS4 is the worst car he's ever owned in the snow Its so comfortable great long distance cruiser and pretty nippy to overall i would definatly recomend the cayenne diesel over the panamera as its also 4wd.
buy one and you will be hooked!
Chris i reckon you've made my mind up if i ever get round to stumbling over some money.
I have admired what Porsche have done , although it is still an unusual shape , it's growing on me.
But for ultimate ground covering ability i would plonk for the model you are running . I just feel that maybe 19's with a nice design would lift the car further , obviously compromising comfort though.
I have admired what Porsche have done , although it is still an unusual shape , it's growing on me.
But for ultimate ground covering ability i would plonk for the model you are running . I just feel that maybe 19's with a nice design would lift the car further , obviously compromising comfort though.
E38Ross said:
Not sure about the new cayenne but the old one was surprisingly not very roomy in the back, and the 4wd is hardly a deal breaker as you can get a cayenne in 4wd. Not sure why i'd rule other cars out because they aren't 4wd either, never had a problem, winter tyres on 2wd are almost always better than normal tyres 4wd. As my mate with a b7 RS4 says.... His RS4 is the worst car he's ever owned in the snow
Talking of torque, snow & the RS4
Mermaid said:
Talking of torque, snow & the RS4
That tells me that 85 percent or so of peak torque is available from under 25% max rpm. Assuming the diesel revs to 4800, and both cars are geared similarly (eg 200mph at max rpm in 6th) then that's the equivalent of less than 1200rpm in the diesel. Anyone got a torque curve for this diesel engine? I'd be intrigued to see the difference at given percentages of max rpm and power produced.
toppstuff said:
I have, right from the beginning, been a staunch defender of the Panamera. And I like the way it looks.
I simply cannot comprehend for the life of me, how people think the car is ugly when they consider other cars out there, which do not attract so much as a grumble. The irony of people who own any modern Peugeot, any modern Vauxhall, even most Audi's with their absurd DRL's, calling the Panamera ugly simply tells me that a lot of people seem to have no sense at all.
No -one seems to mind the latest Mercedes CLS either. I quite liked the old one, but when I saw a new CLS the other day I was shocked at how goppingly wrong it looks. The Panamera is gorgeous compared to the new CLS.
But, of course, it is a purely subjective thing. I do wonder, however, if sometimes these things become an accepted mantra that is simply followed by the masses, like so many sheep. Many people seem to continue to quote Clarkson, so this theory has some merit...
Anyway. Its a fine car. Fit for a purpose. And it looks the way it does for a reason - if they reduced the length of the rear roofline, made the rear quarter a little less heavy, it would look not unlike an Aston Rapide. Given that the Aston Rapide is a sales flop, primarily because it is neither one thing nor the other, with compromised rear space, this in my opinion demonstrates why Porsche got it right.
The Panamera is also a sales success. I believe it is (or at least has been in level pegging with the Cayenne) Porsche's best selling car. And for a good reason.
The only area of regret I have is over the engine. Audi have a mighty V8 diesel. It is a shame that you have to buy a ( genuinely ugly ) Audi A8 or a VW Toureg to get access to it. It would be lovely in the Porsche.
The bonnet line is too low for the Audi bi-turbo V6, sadly. Wonder if they'll try and make it fit in the facelift Panam? Can you dry-sump a diesel? Presume the Audi Le Mans P1 cars were?I simply cannot comprehend for the life of me, how people think the car is ugly when they consider other cars out there, which do not attract so much as a grumble. The irony of people who own any modern Peugeot, any modern Vauxhall, even most Audi's with their absurd DRL's, calling the Panamera ugly simply tells me that a lot of people seem to have no sense at all.
No -one seems to mind the latest Mercedes CLS either. I quite liked the old one, but when I saw a new CLS the other day I was shocked at how goppingly wrong it looks. The Panamera is gorgeous compared to the new CLS.
But, of course, it is a purely subjective thing. I do wonder, however, if sometimes these things become an accepted mantra that is simply followed by the masses, like so many sheep. Many people seem to continue to quote Clarkson, so this theory has some merit...
Anyway. Its a fine car. Fit for a purpose. And it looks the way it does for a reason - if they reduced the length of the rear roofline, made the rear quarter a little less heavy, it would look not unlike an Aston Rapide. Given that the Aston Rapide is a sales flop, primarily because it is neither one thing nor the other, with compromised rear space, this in my opinion demonstrates why Porsche got it right.
The Panamera is also a sales success. I believe it is (or at least has been in level pegging with the Cayenne) Porsche's best selling car. And for a good reason.
The only area of regret I have is over the engine. Audi have a mighty V8 diesel. It is a shame that you have to buy a ( genuinely ugly ) Audi A8 or a VW Toureg to get access to it. It would be lovely in the Porsche.
Edited by toppstuff on Monday 20th August 12:44
But once you're in it, going about your daily business, this car is already fast enough for me.
Chris Harris said:
The bonnet line is too low for the Audi bi-turbo V6, sadly. Wonder if they'll try and make it fit in the facelift Panam? Can you dry-sump a diesel? Presume the Audi Le Mans P1 cars were?
But once you're in it, going about your daily business, this car is already fast enough for me.
Dry-sump should work on any engine, I'd have thought.But once you're in it, going about your daily business, this car is already fast enough for me.
Good to hear you say that the car is quick enough. A lot of people seem to have lost sight of what useful, useable performance really is. A lot of people also seem to view decent low rpm torque as a negative.
Let's not have the same old debate about torque, power, diesel and petrol. The fact is that modern diesels can provide decent performance and use less fuel than an equivalently quick petrol.
I can appreciate the talents it has, but I'd still take anything else in class (bar the Audi A8).
Hell, I'd probably go for a Cadillac XTS in preference. I hear those are going to be a terrific cruiser, it's just a shame there's no V8.
Not that I have the money anyway, so this is still conjecture
Hell, I'd probably go for a Cadillac XTS in preference. I hear those are going to be a terrific cruiser, it's just a shame there's no V8.
Not that I have the money anyway, so this is still conjecture
Drove the Panamera Turbo back to back on track against a 991 C2S in the wet and wet to drying conditions.
I expect a pile of abuse but in the difficult conditions the Panamera Turbo is a far better track car!
My brother has bought 1 of only 2 available from Reading's allocation this year.
Still woundn't touch any diesel though humbug!
I expect a pile of abuse but in the difficult conditions the Panamera Turbo is a far better track car!
My brother has bought 1 of only 2 available from Reading's allocation this year.
Still woundn't touch any diesel though humbug!
Good article Chris Harris! I remember back in 2001 telling a peugeot salesman that there would never be a diesel porsche, he just laughed at me and said "there will never be a diesel porsche"...how wrong he was!
Panamera diesel is typical porsche in that it seems to go much better than the stats suggest. Typical road test figs I have seen suggest 30-70 in about 6 seconds...quick enough for the UK...I'm sure a quicker derivative will follow in time...the economy figures are simply brilliant for such a large car. I'm sure Chris will remember an old Autocar road test where they failed to beat high 30s MPG driving the then new E90 320d at similar speeds on the continent...
I've always liked the Panamera ever since that top gear episode...id have one over any of the other top end barges, if I had the dosh!!
Panamera diesel is typical porsche in that it seems to go much better than the stats suggest. Typical road test figs I have seen suggest 30-70 in about 6 seconds...quick enough for the UK...I'm sure a quicker derivative will follow in time...the economy figures are simply brilliant for such a large car. I'm sure Chris will remember an old Autocar road test where they failed to beat high 30s MPG driving the then new E90 320d at similar speeds on the continent...
I've always liked the Panamera ever since that top gear episode...id have one over any of the other top end barges, if I had the dosh!!
Edited by Bezza1969 on Monday 20th August 18:34
Lovely car.
I must have a prudent streak in me, but when I look at any item for purchase I find myself looking at the price and deciding if it offers value.
Now the Panamera offers a lot. A premium brand, quality build, etc etc..
But consider this:
The PanAm is a a simple RWD chassis, uses a standard cooking VAG diesel lump and an off the shelf ZF drivetrain. It costs , rounding up with some extras, nearly £70,000.
An Audi A7 uses the same engine, mated to a 4WD Quattro drivetrain, with roughly the same acreage of steel and , you could argue, equally good build quality and just as pleasant an interior. And you can get a nice one with change from £40,000. I doubt if it is as nice a drive, though.
Methinks the Panamera is a profitable unit for Porsche / VAG.
Good for them. The market will take it. But it is food for thought.
I must have a prudent streak in me, but when I look at any item for purchase I find myself looking at the price and deciding if it offers value.
Now the Panamera offers a lot. A premium brand, quality build, etc etc..
But consider this:
The PanAm is a a simple RWD chassis, uses a standard cooking VAG diesel lump and an off the shelf ZF drivetrain. It costs , rounding up with some extras, nearly £70,000.
An Audi A7 uses the same engine, mated to a 4WD Quattro drivetrain, with roughly the same acreage of steel and , you could argue, equally good build quality and just as pleasant an interior. And you can get a nice one with change from £40,000. I doubt if it is as nice a drive, though.
Methinks the Panamera is a profitable unit for Porsche / VAG.
Good for them. The market will take it. But it is food for thought.
i love the panamera, but i struggle to justify the cost of it in this guise when an A6 in Quattro 3.0 Bi-turbo Diesel ( 315BHP) S-line is yours for £48k OTR. It seems you are scarificing a lot for a porsche porsche.
Any plans for the Bi turbo 3.0 Tdi (315bhp) to appear in the Panamera????
Any plans for the Bi turbo 3.0 Tdi (315bhp) to appear in the Panamera????
toppstuff said:
Lovely car.
I must have a prudent streak in me, but when I look at any item for purchase I find myself looking at the price and deciding if it offers value.
Now the Panamera offers a lot. A premium brand, quality build, etc etc..
But consider this:
The PanAm is a a simple RWD chassis, uses a standard cooking VAG diesel lump and an off the shelf ZF drivetrain. It costs , rounding up with some extras, nearly £70,000.
An Audi A7 uses the same engine, mated to a 4WD Quattro drivetrain, with roughly the same acreage of steel and , you could argue, equally good build quality and just as pleasant an interior. And you can get a nice one with change from £40,000. I doubt if it is as nice a drive, though.
Methinks the Panamera is a profitable unit for Porsche / VAG.
Good for them. The market will take it. But it is food for thought.
I'm sure I read that the 911 was one of the most profitable cars on sale, I guess the Panamera probably isn't far off. I must have a prudent streak in me, but when I look at any item for purchase I find myself looking at the price and deciding if it offers value.
Now the Panamera offers a lot. A premium brand, quality build, etc etc..
But consider this:
The PanAm is a a simple RWD chassis, uses a standard cooking VAG diesel lump and an off the shelf ZF drivetrain. It costs , rounding up with some extras, nearly £70,000.
An Audi A7 uses the same engine, mated to a 4WD Quattro drivetrain, with roughly the same acreage of steel and , you could argue, equally good build quality and just as pleasant an interior. And you can get a nice one with change from £40,000. I doubt if it is as nice a drive, though.
Methinks the Panamera is a profitable unit for Porsche / VAG.
Good for them. The market will take it. But it is food for thought.
E38Ross said:
Not sure about the new cayenne but the old one was surprisingly not very roomy in the back, and the 4wd is hardly a deal breaker as you can get a cayenne in 4wd. Not sure why i'd rule other cars out because they aren't 4wd either, never had a problem, winter tyres on 2wd are almost always better than normal tyres 4wd. As my mate with a b7 RS4 says.... His RS4 is the worst car he's ever owned in the snow
Been a while since I test drove a new Cayenne - that came with a movable rear bench to allow either plenty of leg room for day to days duties or extra space in the boot as needed.seawise said:
no one needs to transport 4 adults over great distances, they use a bloody plane for that. but you might need to transport the wife and three children, even over short distances. the Panamera can't do that so it's not even on the list, let alone a short list, which is a pity, because i'd quite like a Porsche as a daily driver, but their quest to be 'luxury' has made the car completely impractical for anyone stupid enough to have more than two offspring. their loss, Mercedes gain in my case.
I do. I can't be bothered with planes, there's no adventure in air travel! We have lots of great memories from our travelling, none of which came from flying.My family (wife and 2 boys) have been all over Europe in our 996 and we're just about to go into France near the Swiss border for a couple of weeks in the 997! We are also going on two ski holidays in it next year.
We'd like a Panamera to do it in although we're still not convinced that it should be a diesel one, although having said that range is a huge bonus when touring, no-one enjoys filling up(my job whether driving or sleeping!). We've said that once they reach £25k we'll get one to compliment the 911, kids will be getting too big for European tours in the back of a 911 by then.
Great initial review Chris, we'll be watching with interest over the course of the next few months.
PGM said:
seawise said:
no one needs to transport 4 adults over great distances, they use a bloody plane for that. but you might need to transport the wife and three children, even over short distances. the Panamera can't do that so it's not even on the list, let alone a short list, which is a pity, because i'd quite like a Porsche as a daily driver, but their quest to be 'luxury' has made the car completely impractical for anyone stupid enough to have more than two offspring. their loss, Mercedes gain in my case.
I do. I can't be bothered with planes, there's no adventure in air travel! We have lots of great memories from our travelling, none of which came from flying.My family (wife and 2 boys) have been all over Europe in our 996 and we're just about to go into France near the Swiss border for a couple of weeks in the 997! We are also going on two ski holidays in it next year.
We'd like a Panamera to do it in although we're still not convinced that it should be a diesel one, although having said that range is a huge bonus when touring, no-one enjoys filling up(my job whether driving or sleeping!). We've said that once they reach £25k we'll get one to compliment the 911, kids will be getting too big for European tours in the back of a 911 by then.
Great initial review Chris, we'll be watching with interest over the course of the next few months.
I'd have a Panamera all day long. Few big cars in this class are really pretty without really compromising interior cabin space. Take the A8 - a good looking car to me, but to get that roof line the rear passenger seats seriously eat into boot space. The XJ works, but isn't pretty for it.
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