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Mr Happy

Original Poster:

4,290 posts

90 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
jamei303 said:
Mr Happy said:
No, I seem to be under the wholly correct impression that if you think someone shouldn't do something, you'll do your utmost to stop it happening - irrespective of how the other person feels, why else would you put yourself in a position of harm to 'reduce the risk for someone else'
Because I don't see it that way do I? I am not "putting myself in a a position of harm to reduce the risk to others", but rather "putting myself in a position to reduce the chances of collision occurring". You obviously can't even see things from other people's perspective so you certainly can't read my mind to discover that "if [I] think someone shouldn't do something, you'll do your utmost to stop it happening".

Why is it that you seem to be the only person here pretending you're divining my motivations rather than sticking to the facts of vehicles and roads? rolleyes
I can only go by what you have said.

You said that you will straddle lanes to prevent someone from overtaking if you deem the overtake not to be on if on the approach to a merge point.

Ergo, you are putting yourself in a position of harm - you don't know if that car is overtaking or out of control.

By moving in front of a car that could possibly be overtaking or careening down the road experiencing some form of mechanical difficulty you are putting yourself in harms way.

If you want this in a pure vehicles and roads manner, then vehicle A staying in L1 at the merge point is safer for all concerned than vehicle A moving to straddle L1 and L2. By straddling L1 and L2, vehicle A is reducing the available road space for vehicle B to pass it. If the driver of vehicle B has made an error of judgement, then by vehicle A being incorrectly placed on the road, the driver of vehicle A has increased exponentially the risk of collision either between vehicle A and B or vehicle B and a piece of street furniture.

If vehicle A had simply kept as far left as is safe to do so, vehicle B may have had a brown trouser moment, but they are both driving home to their respective families A and B. If vehicle A was placed incorrectly, causing vehicle B to impact road furniture at speed, then either family B may end up missing father B, or totally unconnected vehicle C, driving towards the merge point on the other side of the road may end up with a vehicle B-shaped dint in his car. All because of vehicle A's actions.

Savvy?

Edited by Mr Happy on Wednesday 22 August 20:02

jamei303

313 posts

26 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Mr Happy said:
If you want this in a pure vehicles and roads manner, then vehicle A staying in L1 at the merge point is safer for all concerned than vehicle A moving to straddle L1 and L2. By straddling L1 and L2, vehicle A is reducing the available road space for vehicle B to pass it. If the driver of vehicle B has made an error of judgement, then by vehicle A being incorrectly placed on the road, the driver of vehicle A has increased exponentially the risk of collision either between vehicle A and B or vehicle B and a piece of street furniture.
I'd only position my vehicle A in such a way at a time prior to vehicle B making any kind of start to their overtake. My position at such a time, the chances of vehicle B attempting an overtake are diminished. Yes there is potentially less available road space for B to make the overtake, should they decide to do so, but this is obviated by vehicle A being able to move to the left whenever necessary, usually as soon as B begins closing for an overtake.

The increased risk caused by an overtake being attempted when A is in the centre, is more than compensated for by the reduced risk of the overtake being attempted at all.

Mr Happy said:
If vehicle A had simply kept as far left as is safe to do so, vehicle B may have had a brown trouser moment, but they are both driving home to their respective families A and B. If vehicle A was placed incorrectly, causing vehicle B to impact road furniture at speed, then either family B may end up missing father B, or totally unconnected vehicle C, driving towards the merge point on the other side of the road may end up with a vehicle B-shaped dint in his car. All because of vehicle A's actions.
If A simply kept left, there is an increased risk to both of an overtake going wrong because an overtake is more likely.



Edited by jamei303 on Wednesday 22 August 22:02

Mr Happy

Original Poster:

4,290 posts

90 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Just to impart a bit of humanity in this - I don't know you from Adam, so I'm not having a go at you. You must understand that the manner of which you've described your actions is pretty much contrary to the topic of the thread and as such, it's like going (for want of a better example) head on with someone.

I'm simply trying to make you aware that, as good as your intentions may be - your actions are not conductive to a safer merging experience for everyone. I know you said you'd had a close call, and as such I can understand your dislike of criticism as you obviously feel safer doing what you are doing, but there are situations where incorrect road placement will hide more than it shows, and that could end up being bad for one or more drivers.

The least thing anyone wants is a PHer snuffing it or causing someone else to snuff it through their own or not anticipating others incorrect actions on the road.

I've read back over my posts and find that although the content is sound, the delivery maybe not so, it is for that I'd like to apologise if you think I have made a personal attack - I haven't, however I do still find the manner in which you have described your actions surrounding the whole merge point behaviour incorrect.

Mr Happy

Original Poster:

4,290 posts

90 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
jamei303 said:
I'd only position my vehicle A in such a way at a time prior to vehicle B making any kind of start to their overtake. My position at such a time, the chances of vehicle B attempting an overtake are diminished. Yes there is potentially less available road space for B to make the overtake, should they decide to do so, but this is obviated by vehicle A being able to move to the left whenever necessary, usually as soon as B begins closing for an overtake.

The increased risk caused by an overtake being attempted when A is in the centre, is more than compensated for by the reduced risk of the overtake being attempted at all.
And if that vehicle was not overtaking, but actually in the process of losing control - you're going to put yourself in harms way.

Just keep to the left, honestly - it is safer for all concerned. It gives you multiple ways out of the situation. You always have the option of using the brakes if you're on the left (which, if you're straddling, could be misinterpreted by an overtaker as a brake test, or on a slick road could lead to you losing control if trying a late lane change manoeuvre to escape a rapidly closing car behind you)

jamei303 said:
If A simply kept left, there is an increased risk to both of an overtake going wrong because an overtake is more likely.
A should always keep left. It gives the best view of the road to B and allows A multiple chances to avoid a collision if B attempts a risky overtake. If you forcibly stop B overtaking, then that increases the chance of road rage and that is not good for anyone.

Edited by Mr Happy on Wednesday 22 August 20:18

Countdown

6,610 posts

66 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
edward1 said:
It would seem that it is british driving culture for the majority of drivers to merge as soon as they see the signs indicating a lane is closed off. The result is a queue of slow or stationary traffic as in turn each car slows to let someone move over, and an empty lane.
Not IME. Early merging usually means the traffic continue to move through the merge point at or near the limit. Early merging is usually easier because the gaps are bigger (traffic bunches up as a result of people merging late and forcing others to brake)

edward1 said:
Drivers legitimately then use the empty lane up to the merge point and then attempt to merge
It is extremely difficult to merge late when there is a big speed differential between the lanes, for various reasons. Drivers do not leave a big enough gap. If somebody decides to takeover into this gap the person behind has to brake to make the gap bigger. The late merger also had to brake to avoid crashing into the car in front (because of the speed differential). And that's before you introduce issues of attitude and ego; I've seen ignorant twunts drive over hatchlings just to get ONE car in front when there's a 300 yard gap behind available for the merge.

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AJB

363 posts

85 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Mr Happy said:
Well, it's obviously something that, irrespective of how wrong you are (and that is very, very wrong) you actually seem to believe in. I am honestly at a loss as to how you can be so blinkered as to thinking that by holding up traffic you are somehow 'helping' the situation, but there we have it.
But overall it's not holding up the traffic. Traffic flowing through the restriction is completely merged before it gets to the restriction, so the overall flow rate is as good as it'll get - one lane moving efficiently through the roadworks or whatever.

Any traffic held up (those arriving after the straddling vehicle who would otherwise choose to stay in lane 2 longer than the majority), are exactly cancelled out by those who save time (those ahead of the straddling vehicle who were already in lane 1 when approaching the congestion or who merged early).

I completely fail to see how the straddling is, on average, causing an overall hold up. If it was, then I'd agree that it's not on.

Assuming the merge has happened way too early (eg a mile before the restriction as someone suggested earlier), then I'd expect 2 lanes to follow the HGV and merge much later when it pulls in. That way, the merge point has actually been moved in the direction you want it to, without any overall holdup. And a car arriving after the HGV is no worse off at all than it would be if every driver was "perfect" and merged nearer the restriction as you'd like them to.

AJB

363 posts

85 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
R0G said:
Does anyone else actually agree with jamei303 ?
I get what he's saying, yes. I don't quite see why nobody else does.

He's saying that if there's a road where an inconsiderate driver might try to squeeze in an unsafe overtake, then positioning his car in such a way as to suggest (consciously or sub-consciously) that there isn't room for the overtake will improve overall safety.

Everyone seems to be taking that as him saying he'll pull out and dangerously block an overtake already in progress which I haven't seen him say anywhere. Drivers can give and pick up a lot of cues and intents from other cars' movements and positioning.

As to all the speculation about "what if the overtaking vehicle has had brake failure and isn't trying an overtake at all?", well, I assume he's going to be looking in his mirror. If someone approaches at speed clearly intent on an overtake despite his positioning (perhaps because of extremely unlikely brake failure), then he can always move left again and safely get out of the way.

He's trying to suggest to others that the last minute pass isn't on before it happens, rather than trying to block a pass in progress.

scarble

2,010 posts

27 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
AJB said:
But overall it's not holding up the traffic. Traffic flowing through the restriction is completely merged before it gets to the restriction, so the overall flow rate is as good as it'll get - one lane moving efficiently through the roadworks or whatever.
It's holding up traffic if there is space ahead. That's what this thread is about, through all the noise.

AJB

363 posts

85 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
Early merging usually means the traffic continue to move through the merge point at or near the limit. Early merging is usually easier because the gaps are bigger (traffic bunches up as a result of people merging late and forcing others to brake)
Yes. I think there's a happy medium here. Merging in the last 10 or 20 meters is going to be inefficient and reduce flow rate if the traffic is moving at any sort of speed (above 5 or 10 mph).

Merging 1 mile before restriction increases risk of tailback reaching a previous junction, and increases stress and aggro between drivers who think they should merge at the first merge point, and those who think they should merge at the last.

Merging maybe a few hundred meters before the restriction, give or take, is probably ideal. The give or take is key. Some people will go a bit earlier, some a bit later, all in an efficient way. Merging at the last possible point gives no option of merging later, and so causes more stops in the flow.

If the merge has happened miles too early, then the HGV straddling approach could help to move the merge point nearer to the restriction, and back into the ideal zone (as 2 lanes of traffic follow the HGV for a mile before merging in turn when it pulls in).

AJB

363 posts

85 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
scarble said:
It's holding up traffic if there is space ahead. That's what this thread is about, through all the noise.
It's holding up the traffic in lane 2, yes. But helping the flow in lane 1 ahead of it which doesn't now have to merge "in turn" with cars in lane 2 (who arrived at the congestion much later, and so it could be argued it wouldn't really be in turn anyway).

Anyway, regardless of fairness or otherwise, overall it averages out the same, and no overall holdup. Some win, some lose, the overall delay is no different. Some people will be cross because of the straddling. Other people will be less cross because perceived queue jumping isn't happening.

I don't particularly have a problem with it either way.

Mr Happy

Original Poster:

4,290 posts

90 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
So essentially you have the straddlers saying "what we're doing is helpful", everyone else saying "what you are doing is illegal, and unhelpful" and yet the straddlers still believe they are in the right...

It honestly is beyond belief.

Countdown

6,610 posts

66 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Mr Happy said:
So essentially you have the straddlers saying "what we're doing is helpful", everyone else saying "what you are doing is illegal, and unhelpful" and yet the straddlers still believe they are in the right...

It honestly is beyond belief.
Not a straddler here but IME somebody straddling ALWAYS results in L1 moving faster

m8rky

1,553 posts

29 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Mr Happy said:
So essentially you have the straddlers saying "what we're doing is helpful", everyone else saying "what you are doing is illegal, and unhelpful" and yet the straddlers still believe they are in the right...

It honestly is beyond belief.
As I mentioned earlier as well straddlers are potentially causing problems further back due to loss of traffic storage.

Mr Happy

Original Poster:

4,290 posts

90 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
Mr Happy said:
So essentially you have the straddlers saying "what we're doing is helpful", everyone else saying "what you are doing is illegal, and unhelpful" and yet the straddlers still believe they are in the right...

It honestly is beyond belief.
Not a straddler here but IME somebody straddling ALWAYS results in L1 moving faster
No, it just slows L2 down to the same crawl that L1 is experiencing.

AJB

363 posts

85 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
AJB said:
but I've never straddled or blocked.
Mr Happy said:
So essentially you have the straddlers saying "what we're doing is helpful", everyone else saying "what you are doing is illegal, and unhelpful" and yet the straddlers still believe they are in the right..
Countdown said:
Not a straddler here
So no. Straddlers, and at least AJB and Countdown are saying that straddlers aren't necessarily in the wrong.

But anyway, it's not exactly surprising that people who think they're right are saying "I think I'm right", and other people who think the first people are wrong but they're right are saying "I think you're wrong and I think I'm right". That's kind of how debates tend to go.

SystemParanoia

8,662 posts

68 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
AJB said:
R0G said:
Does anyone else actually agree with jamei303 ?
I get what he's saying, yes. I don't quite see why nobody else does.

He's saying that if there's a road where an inconsiderate driver might try to squeeze in an unsafe overtake, then positioning his car in such a way as to suggest (consciously or sub-consciously) that there isn't room for the overtake will improve overall safety.

Everyone seems to be taking that as him saying he'll pull out and dangerously block an overtake already in progress which I haven't seen him say anywhere. Drivers can give and pick up a lot of cues and intents from other cars' movements and positioning.

As to all the speculation about "what if the overtaking vehicle has had brake failure and isn't trying an overtake at all?", well, I assume he's going to be looking in his mirror. If someone approaches at speed clearly intent on an overtake despite his positioning (perhaps because of extremely unlikely brake failure), then he can always move left again and safely get out of the way.

He's trying to suggest to others that the last minute pass isn't on before it happens, rather than trying to block a pass in progress.
ive had this happen on a dual carrigeway whilst in a convoy of 4x4's heading out greenlaning..

a prick in an arctic pulled out on us and straddled both lanes; in responce we just drove round him, up and over the central grass reservation and back down infront of him.

he doesnt own the road so can fk right off, i will use any lane i please upto the restriction and merge then. not before.

AJB

363 posts

85 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Mr Happy said:
Countdown said:
Not a straddler here but IME somebody straddling ALWAYS results in L1 moving faster
No, it just slows L2 down to the same crawl that L1 is experiencing.
No, L1 goes faster in front of the straddler, because nobody is merging with it. L1 speeds up, L2 slows down to the now-faster crawl. Overall flow is the same, or better if people were trying to merge in the last few meters of L2.

Countdown

6,610 posts

66 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Mr Happy said:
No, it just slows L2 down to the same crawl that L1 is experiencing.
L1 does not crawl if nobody is merging late. It's the merging late----> hard braking----> concertina effect that causes L1to slow and then stop to a crawl.

Why else would L1 slow down?

Mr Happy

Original Poster:

4,290 posts

90 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
So that is two "pro" straddling, vs how many against?

Can I ask just how often you use the motorway network, the pro straddlers, and what your average mileage per year is?

Mr Happy

Original Poster:

4,290 posts

90 months

[news] 
Wednesday 22nd August 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
Mr Happy said:
No, it just slows L2 down to the same crawl that L1 is experiencing.
L1 does not crawl if nobody is merging late. It's the merging late----> hard braking----> concertina effect that causes L1to slow and then stop to a crawl.

Why else would L1 slow down?
Oh, I dunno... because of the traffic at a complete standstill?

At three points in a 5 mile tailback yesterday, I experienced people straddling... There is nothing to gain, just basically ensuring that people don't pass them. Even when there was no merge point in sight.

There was the also slightly less annoying creeper, leaving a quarter of a mile of open road in front of them, while creeping up on the clutch in 1st - but that wasn't too bad, as it provided plenty of opportunity to move out of L1 into L2 to actually move through the jam.
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