An end to 'modified' cars?
Discussion
If it's about getting type approval for safety related items (brakes, steering racks etc) then surely no-one would be against that? I would be concerned if I had fitted an uprated part (like 4 pot calipers to my old car) that have gone through type approval, and then to be told to replace them with the original.
Breadvan72 said:
Dan Trent said:
Morning all! Just to say we're looking into this right now and will report back with a homepage story in due course, hopefully around lunchtime all being well.
Cheers!
Dan
Dan, you have a PM.Cheers!
Dan
The draft reg does not deal with type approval. It deals with MOT tests and the equivalent thereof.
'roadworthiness test' means a verification of the parts and components of a vehicle comply with its safety and environmental characteristics in force at the time of approval, first registration or entry into service, as well as at the time of retrofitting;
That refers to a roadworthiness test, with emphasis on safety and enviro factors. The words "type approval" do not appear in the body of the draft Regulation. I am genuinely interested in considering the interpretation put forward by the doom and gloomists, but have yet to see it argued, as opposed to asserted.
Breadvan72 said:
If you CBA to read the proposal, may I politely suggest that you SBA to comment on it, especially when your comment has little to do with the content of the proposal. Dudes, this is about MOT tests, not type approvals. Look up: the sky is NOT falling.
I read the posts as an MOT legislation change, and have commented on the posts that I have read. I think the comments I made are valid enough to print, and reference MOT testers not being able to test a car to a granular level (cost and time effectively) to validate ALL working and installed parts.May I politely suggest you have been brash in your response - my point was my reasoning on the forum posts I have read, won't see my devouring pages of legislation to see if my Caterham MOT would be a pain - don't see why you take that as a reason I can't comment.
Do you own a Saxo with a big wing?
Breadvan72 said:
That refers to a roadworthiness test, with emphasis on safety and enviro factors. The words "type approval" do not appear in the body of the draft Regulation. I am genuinely interested in considering the interpretation put forward by the doom and gloomists, but have yet to see it argued, as opposed to asserted.
Would you say that our MOT test is currently compliant with this legislation? Breadvan72 said:
That refers to a roadworthiness test, with emphasis on safety and enviro factors. The words "type approval" do not appear in the body of the draft Regulation. I am genuinely interested in considering the interpretation put forward by the doom and gloomists, but have yet to see it argued, as opposed to asserted.
How is article 3 section 9 not part of the regulation? It's clearly there for all to see.You are obviously very well versed in these matters,( a lawyer perhaps?) probably more than most of us here, but you seem to want to ignore certain parts of the regulation.
I'm really desperately trying not to get into an argument with you here, we need everyone onside if this is to be halted.
Do you not agree that the EU hasn't given any consideration to how this will be implemented in member states, they just want to railroad the regulation through to get blanket standardisation?
Breadvan72 said:
shakotan said:
Breadvan72 said:
People are reading far too much into this, and getting wound up by "we told you so!" and "the sky is falling!' websites written by people with zero apparent expertise in European law.
They are not. The Legislation does not permit a 'pass' without the vehicle conforming 100% to the original Type Approval. Sticking on a set of aftermarket wheels deviates from the Type Approval, therefore your car WILL NOT pass the test, and will therefore have to be referred to a BIVA Test, costing upwards of £200.- Except the Pope, but he gets driven about in a chair, so screw him.
Page 9 Para 4 said:
A number of technical standards and requirements on vehicle safety have been adopted within the Union. It is however necessary to ensure, through a regime of
periodic roadworthiness tests, that after being placed on the market, vehicles continue to meet safety standards throughout their lifetime. This regime should apply to categories of vehicles as defined by...
Directive 2007/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 5 September 2007 establishing a framework for the approval for motor vehicles and their trailers...
Directive 2007/46/EC - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?...periodic roadworthiness tests, that after being placed on the market, vehicles continue to meet safety standards throughout their lifetime. This regime should apply to categories of vehicles as defined by...
Directive 2007/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 5 September 2007 establishing a framework for the approval for motor vehicles and their trailers...
Page 4 Para 11 said:
By Council Decision 97/836/EC (2), the Community acceded to the Agreement of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe concerning the adoption of uniform technical prescriptions for wheeled vehicles, equipment and parts which can be fitted to and/or used on wheeled vehicles and the conditions for reciprocal recognition of approvals granted on the basis of these prescriptions (Revised 1958 Agreement).
shakotan said:
They are not. The Legislation does not permit a 'pass' without the vehicle conforming 100% to the original Type Approval. Sticking on a set of aftermarket wheels deviates from the Type Approval, therefore your car WILL NOT pass the test, and will therefore have to be referred to a BIVA Test, costing upwards of £200.
Read iiiiit. It does not say any such thing. It only concerns itself with significant deviations from safety or environmental design, which the MoT does already.bigdavy said:
Breadvan72 said:
That refers to a roadworthiness test, with emphasis on safety and enviro factors. The words "type approval" do not appear in the body of the draft Regulation. I am genuinely interested in considering the interpretation put forward by the doom and gloomists, but have yet to see it argued, as opposed to asserted.
How is article 3 section 9 not part of the regulation? It's clearly there for all to see.You are obviously very well versed in these matters,( a lawyer perhaps?) probably more than most of us here, but you seem to want to ignore certain parts of the regulation.
I'm really desperately trying not to get into an argument with you here, we need everyone onside if this is to be halted.
Do you not agree that the EU hasn't given any consideration to how this will be implemented in member states, they just want to railroad the regulation through to get blanket standardisation?
I agree that the draft appears to be ill thought out in some respects, but it does at least allow for some local discretion.
There is nothing wrong with polite argument. This is a debating forum.
bigdavy said:
My personal situation;
I have a 1959 ford Pop 103E Hot Rod. This car has been a hot rod in various forms since the early 1980s, therefore it has been a modified car for longer than it has been a standard car. I am 75% through a major overhaul and have many thousands of pounds (and hours) invested. There is NO WAY my car could be returned to standard specification. Therefore my car will be removed from the road and i wil have 2 options;
1. Take it for a BIVA test. Pointless as it would never pass the test purely by the shape and design of the car, not to mention things like the glass would not conform to the test etc etc. So this leaves me option 2;
My car will be scrap.
No. Your car will easily conform with the regulations under which it was Type Approved in the dark and distant 1950s, which is the only set of regulations it would be tested against in the course of an individual vehicle approval test. I have a 1959 ford Pop 103E Hot Rod. This car has been a hot rod in various forms since the early 1980s, therefore it has been a modified car for longer than it has been a standard car. I am 75% through a major overhaul and have many thousands of pounds (and hours) invested. There is NO WAY my car could be returned to standard specification. Therefore my car will be removed from the road and i wil have 2 options;
1. Take it for a BIVA test. Pointless as it would never pass the test purely by the shape and design of the car, not to mention things like the glass would not conform to the test etc etc. So this leaves me option 2;
My car will be scrap.
shakotan said:
Directive 2007/46/EC - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?...
Eurocrats ban wheels! It's a flippin' outraaaage! How are 100 billion people going to afford flying cars?Page 4 Para 11 said:
By Council Decision 97/836/EC (2), the Community acceded to the Agreement of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe concerning the adoption of uniform technical prescriptions for wheeled vehicles, equipment and parts which can be fitted to and/or used on wheeled vehicles and the conditions for reciprocal recognition of approvals granted on the basis of these prescriptions (Revised 1958 Agreement).
Oh wait, it's exactly the same as our current MOT.
Shakotan, you have referred to one of the recitals, and not to any provision of the draft Regulation itself. The Recital does no more than refer to the Directive which addresses type approvals. It notes that the draft regulations will apply to vehicles in the category which have type approvals. The provisions of the Directive are not incorporated by reference into the Regulation.
Do you have a reasoned argument, based on the text of the draft Regulation, and not just cut and pastes which do not meet the point?
Do you have a reasoned argument, based on the text of the draft Regulation, and not just cut and pastes which do not meet the point?
This link takes you to the Department of transport consultation.
Section 13 certainley seems to sum it up?
http://tinyurl.com/cpw5lnj
Section 13 certainley seems to sum it up?
http://tinyurl.com/cpw5lnj
trashbat said:
urocrats ban wheels! It's a flippin' outraaaage! How are 100 billion people going to afford flying cars?
Oh wait, it's exactly the same as our current MOT.
Well said! Oh wait, it's exactly the same as our current MOT.
PS: it is now 2012 and I still don't have a flying car, a Moonbase, or hot space babes in skintight tinfoil clothing, like I was promised back in the 1960s. WTF?
900T-R said:
bigdavy said:
My personal situation;
I have a 1959 ford Pop 103E Hot Rod. This car has been a hot rod in various forms since the early 1980s, therefore it has been a modified car for longer than it has been a standard car. I am 75% through a major overhaul and have many thousands of pounds (and hours) invested. There is NO WAY my car could be returned to standard specification. Therefore my car will be removed from the road and i wil have 2 options;
1. Take it for a BIVA test. Pointless as it would never pass the test purely by the shape and design of the car, not to mention things like the glass would not conform to the test etc etc. So this leaves me option 2;
My car will be scrap.
No. Your car will easily conform with the regulations under which it was Type Approved in the dark and distant 1950s, which is the only set of regulations it would be tested against in the course of an individual vehicle approval test. I have a 1959 ford Pop 103E Hot Rod. This car has been a hot rod in various forms since the early 1980s, therefore it has been a modified car for longer than it has been a standard car. I am 75% through a major overhaul and have many thousands of pounds (and hours) invested. There is NO WAY my car could be returned to standard specification. Therefore my car will be removed from the road and i wil have 2 options;
1. Take it for a BIVA test. Pointless as it would never pass the test purely by the shape and design of the car, not to mention things like the glass would not conform to the test etc etc. So this leaves me option 2;
My car will be scrap.
bigdavy said:
This link takes you to the Department of transport consultation.
Section 13 certainley seems to sum it up?
http://tinyurl.com/cpw5lnj
The DoT appears not to have read the draft Regulation either!* The draft does not say that modifications are not allowed. To the extent that it deals with the point at all, it suggests the contrary: article 5.4.Section 13 certainley seems to sum it up?
http://tinyurl.com/cpw5lnj
- as the Department is a long standing client of mine, I can't say that I'm surprised!
Breadvan72 said:
bigdavy said:
This link takes you to the Department of transport consultation.
Section 13 certainley seems to sum it up?
http://tinyurl.com/cpw5lnj
The DoT appears not to have read the draft Regulation either!* The draft does not say that modifications are not allowed. To the extent that it deals with the point at all, it suggests the contrary: article 5.4.Section 13 certainley seems to sum it up?
http://tinyurl.com/cpw5lnj
- as the Department is a long standing client of mine, I can't say that I'm surprised!
Breadvan72 said:
Shakotan, you have referred to one of the recitals, and not to any provision of the draft Regulation itself. The Recital does no more than refer to the Directive which addresses type approvals. It notes that the draft regulations will apply to vehicles in the category which have type approvals. The provisions of the Directive are not incorporated by reference into the Regulation.
Do you have a reasoned argument, based on the text of the draft Regulation, and not just cut and pastes which do not meet the point?
I'm not arguing with you, I'm seeing clarification through points raised by other people.Do you have a reasoned argument, based on the text of the draft Regulation, and not just cut and pastes which do not meet the point?
You are the expert, I'm simply offering up how I [rightly or wrongly] am interpreting this Legislation, and allowing you educate me.
Edited by shakotan on Wednesday 22 August 12:17
Another link for Breadvan72 to take a look at...
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/news/car-clubs...
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/news/car-clubs...
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