RE: PH Blog: pure and simple
Discussion
New Double disc brakes can allow for even better braking using smaller wheels and tires:
http://www.just-auto.com/interview/qa-with-ifr-aut...
"IFR Automotive has developed and patented its Twin Brake Disc (TBD) system. As the name implies the lightweight stainless steel brake system comprises twin discs, each with turbine shaped slots for maximum air cooling and braking efficiency. To find out more, Matthew Beecham talked with Ignacio Fernandez of IFR Automotive.
The principal characteristic of this design is that heat is dissipated quickly and does not accumulate, thereby permitting much thinner discs. The result is a significant weight saving of more than 70% compared with normal brake systems.
Having more than one brake disc also makes the calliper requirements smaller, and hence much lighter, further reducing the total mass of the brakes, which in turn helps to reduce the overall weight of the vehicle.
In addition, a lower unsprung mass is immensely beneficial for a vehicle’s ride and handling performance.
The claimed advantages of this system are:
maximum air cooling and braking efficiency;
improved active safety from improved handling of the vehicle;
more traction from increased contact of the wheel with the road;
improved ride comfort;
less fuel consumption and fewer emissions through ultra lightweight design;
better feel of the brakes for the driver by avoiding the need for a servo;
increased durability of brake pads and discs.
On the company’s Aspid technology demonstrator vehicle, the company claims that the combination of the TBD brake system and patented DLR wishbone suspension, results in a very low unsprung mass which matches that of an F1 car built in composite materials – yet on the Aspid this has been achieved with steel brake discs and an aluminium suspension. Compared with normal road car brake systems, the weight saving is more than 70%.
j-a: What are the forces driving innovation in foundation braking for passenger cars and light trucks? Are those drivers the same for every car segment?
Ignacio Fernandez: In terms of further development, the major challenge is about reducing the weight of the system, which is probably the most crucial factor for two main reasons. The first relates to the unsprung mass of the vehicle, which has a significant impact on the forces transmitted to the chassis, which are proportional to the unsprung mass. Consequently, the unsprung mass of the brakes has a big impact on the set-up of the suspension and the vehicle dynamics generally, influencing both active safety and ride comfort.
The second crucial factor is that the unsprung mass is also rotating and has inertia, which also has to be managed. For IFR Automotive, which is focused on lightweight technology, the main driver behind our technical innovations is weight reduction. Whether a disc or drum, it’s a very heavy component located in the most critical part of the vehicle. As well as providing the fundamental active safety and vehicle dynamic benefits of lightweight brakes, IFR’s advanced twin-disc system, or TBD, also provides a significant step change improvement in resistance to fading at medium and high speed, comparable to that achieved when the industry changed from drum to disc brakes. The improved fade resistance compared with a conventional disc system is one of the major benefits resulting from the rapid cooling delivered by IFR’s twin-disc brake system."
Guys, are you all just out of school or something ? ... this same argument and train of thought has been around for centuries and it gets wheeled out over and over again. The same criticisms applied to the 993 vs. the 964 almost 20 years ago. Buy what floats your boat, there is somethmg for everyone out there. Meanwhile, cars and life in general has to move on.
Dr G said:
Don't like new cars?
Buy an old one.
Problem solved.
^ This. Or at least go for the base model without all the toys. I've got a boggo Cayman and it's brilliant. Still it has traction control that annoys the piss out of me. It's the only car I've ever owned with it and it really doesn't need it. Still I can turn it off every time I get in, but it leaves a bright yellow warning light on the dash as if I'm dicing with death by taking my destiny more into my own hands. It irks me that light. I want it to default to Please Save Me off and that f**king light to f**k off. But ze car, it knows better.Buy an old one.
Problem solved.
Though to be fair it's the only thing that annoys me about the car so I can let it slide.
Nannying bulls
t. Just let me drive my f**king car myself. That's all I ask.Ok, done now.
They could have kept enough purist elements in the car and the yuppies would have bought them anyway. Even the base model 997.1 handled superbly.
But VW/Porsche wants to sell loads of cars based on a sporty heritage and name to lots more drivers, the majority of whom are not enthusiasts. Such people just tend to want to show off and/or drive aggressively without the bother of learning all the old Tiff Needell et al type skills and hence the need for lots of grip and electro-trickery. For that market, purist / fun considerations are a quaint irrelevance.
The 911 is well on its way to becoming a high-performance GT. It's where the money is.
But VW/Porsche wants to sell loads of cars based on a sporty heritage and name to lots more drivers, the majority of whom are not enthusiasts. Such people just tend to want to show off and/or drive aggressively without the bother of learning all the old Tiff Needell et al type skills and hence the need for lots of grip and electro-trickery. For that market, purist / fun considerations are a quaint irrelevance.
The 911 is well on its way to becoming a high-performance GT. It's where the money is.
I totally agree with what the OP is saying. In the pursuit or ultimate performance or pandering to people with very little ability, lots of cars are designed are amazingly fast, capable and easy to drive but with very little interraction unless you are at insane speeds. I have done the blunt Porsche thing, never again... :-)
I happen to think, those giant wheels notwithstanding, that the new Boxster (and no doubt the forthcoming Cayman) is the most stunning Porsche in recent memories. The wheels seems like they are something from a tarted up JDM-mobile, and the spinning mass and unsprung weight must require electronics to compensate. I doubt that the rotors are really the reason for pushing that envelope, but oh well.
But the biggest sin that Porsche seems to have committed, both on the mid- and rear-engine new cars is this electric steering thing. Everyone notes that it damps out the feel of the front wheels. And I'm not sure what other enthusiasts feel, but STEERING FEEL IS THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY I OWN PORSCHES. So, I missed my test-drive in Monterey last week (I had e-selected a Boxter because they now seem to the best Porsche of the lot), but fear that I will remain with 997's for some time.
I will bet that Porsche will hear the howling and either next year, or for the .2's they change the design. They will have to. Else, I'm quite concerned that my love affair will have ended.
V
But the biggest sin that Porsche seems to have committed, both on the mid- and rear-engine new cars is this electric steering thing. Everyone notes that it damps out the feel of the front wheels. And I'm not sure what other enthusiasts feel, but STEERING FEEL IS THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY I OWN PORSCHES. So, I missed my test-drive in Monterey last week (I had e-selected a Boxter because they now seem to the best Porsche of the lot), but fear that I will remain with 997's for some time.
I will bet that Porsche will hear the howling and either next year, or for the .2's they change the design. They will have to. Else, I'm quite concerned that my love affair will have ended.
V
Verde said:
I happen to think, those giant wheels notwithstanding, that the new Boxster (and no doubt the forthcoming Cayman) is the most stunning Porsche in recent memories. The wheels seems like they are something from a tarted up JDM-mobile, and the spinning mass and unsprung weight must require electronics to compensate. I doubt that the rotors are really the reason for pushing that envelope, but oh well.
But the biggest sin that Porsche seems to have committed, both on the mid- and rear-engine new cars is this electric steering thing. Everyone notes that it damps out the feel of the front wheels. And I'm not sure what other enthusiasts feel, but STEERING FEEL IS THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY I OWN PORSCHES. So, I missed my test-drive in Monterey last week (I had e-selected a Boxter because they now seem to the best Porsche of the lot), but fear that I will remain with 997's for some time.
I will bet that Porsche will hear the howling and either next year, or for the .2's they change the design. They will have to. Else, I'm quite concerned that my love affair will have ended.
V
Well its looks as if Ford (mr groundeffect) have found religion on this and as well BMW with there Hydraulically steered new M5, not to mention that Aston plans to stay with it, and I wonder now about Jaguar? so maybe there is hope. bBut the biggest sin that Porsche seems to have committed, both on the mid- and rear-engine new cars is this electric steering thing. Everyone notes that it damps out the feel of the front wheels. And I'm not sure what other enthusiasts feel, but STEERING FEEL IS THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY I OWN PORSCHES. So, I missed my test-drive in Monterey last week (I had e-selected a Boxter because they now seem to the best Porsche of the lot), but fear that I will remain with 997's for some time.
I will bet that Porsche will hear the howling and either next year, or for the .2's they change the design. They will have to. Else, I'm quite concerned that my love affair will have ended.
V
I think we risk being carried away with looking for the actual benefits of this guff in the driving sense, when we should be looking more at the business case. A 911 cabriolet automatic is a prime example. Make the motoring equivalent of Phar Lap, then decorate him until he can no longer run properly and charge extra for it.
Porsche, of all brands will have a enough buyers for whom simply having the best stuff and headline statistics is essential, regardless of what actual difference it will make. So if each change of shape requires only minor fettling of the geometry to keep it sweet at its basic level and the gizmos have already been developed in the motorport division or thhe tech is relatively cheap to buy, but can be sold at a premium, ship the options through to the marketing department and wait for the cash to roll in.
Its a formula that wouldnt work as well at Lotus as it is perceived now. The difference is the brand's image. I wish Lotus would persist with more luxurious models, rather than straight out driver's cars (the projected model line-up under the new owners adressed this). As Porsche have been proving for many years, the cash is in the luxury, not the rawness of feel. Thier stripped out models are even more expensive again, but thats enabled by giving them a differentiator that is perceived to require extra development. "Our cars are so fast AND luxurious, that making a faster one thats less luxurious (therefore giving it an easily cultivated 'race' image - the premium brand label for 'stripped out') is actually quite a bit of work, so we need an extra 20k off you please."
Porsche, of all brands will have a enough buyers for whom simply having the best stuff and headline statistics is essential, regardless of what actual difference it will make. So if each change of shape requires only minor fettling of the geometry to keep it sweet at its basic level and the gizmos have already been developed in the motorport division or thhe tech is relatively cheap to buy, but can be sold at a premium, ship the options through to the marketing department and wait for the cash to roll in.
Its a formula that wouldnt work as well at Lotus as it is perceived now. The difference is the brand's image. I wish Lotus would persist with more luxurious models, rather than straight out driver's cars (the projected model line-up under the new owners adressed this). As Porsche have been proving for many years, the cash is in the luxury, not the rawness of feel. Thier stripped out models are even more expensive again, but thats enabled by giving them a differentiator that is perceived to require extra development. "Our cars are so fast AND luxurious, that making a faster one thats less luxurious (therefore giving it an easily cultivated 'race' image - the premium brand label for 'stripped out') is actually quite a bit of work, so we need an extra 20k off you please."
Reardy Mister said:
Its a formula that wouldnt work as well at Lotus as it is perceived now. The difference is the brand's image. I wish Lotus would persist with more luxurious models, rather than straight out driver's cars (the projected model line-up under the new owners adressed this). As Porsche have been proving for many years, the cash is in the luxury, not the rawness of feel.
If Lotus did that, I'd rather have a Porsche.I drove a BMW X5 with a similar twin-disc front brake system developed by Delhpi, at their ride/drive event back in 2004... Not sure why the idea never was taken any further by them and/or the OEMs it was aimed at.
brianjohns said:
New Double disc brakes can allow for even better braking using smaller wheels and tires:
http://www.just-auto.com/interview/qa-with-ifr-aut...
"IFR Automotive has developed and patented its Twin Brake Disc (TBD) system. As the name implies the lightweight stainless steel brake system comprises twin discs, each with turbine shaped slots for maximum air cooling and braking efficiency. To find out more, Matthew Beecham talked with Ignacio Fernandez of IFR Automotive.
The principal characteristic of this design is that heat is dissipated quickly and does not accumulate, thereby permitting much thinner discs. The result is a significant weight saving of more than 70% compared with normal brake systems.
Having more than one brake disc also makes the calliper requirements smaller, and hence much lighter, further reducing the total mass of the brakes, which in turn helps to reduce the overall weight of the vehicle.
In addition, a lower unsprung mass is immensely beneficial for a vehicle’s ride and handling performance.
The claimed advantages of this system are:
maximum air cooling and braking efficiency;
improved active safety from improved handling of the vehicle;
more traction from increased contact of the wheel with the road;
improved ride comfort;
less fuel consumption and fewer emissions through ultra lightweight design;
better feel of the brakes for the driver by avoiding the need for a servo;
increased durability of brake pads and discs.
On the company’s Aspid technology demonstrator vehicle, the company claims that the combination of the TBD brake system and patented DLR wishbone suspension, results in a very low unsprung mass which matches that of an F1 car built in composite materials – yet on the Aspid this has been achieved with steel brake discs and an aluminium suspension. Compared with normal road car brake systems, the weight saving is more than 70%.
j-a: What are the forces driving innovation in foundation braking for passenger cars and light trucks? Are those drivers the same for every car segment?
Ignacio Fernandez: In terms of further development, the major challenge is about reducing the weight of the system, which is probably the most crucial factor for two main reasons. The first relates to the unsprung mass of the vehicle, which has a significant impact on the forces transmitted to the chassis, which are proportional to the unsprung mass. Consequently, the unsprung mass of the brakes has a big impact on the set-up of the suspension and the vehicle dynamics generally, influencing both active safety and ride comfort.
The second crucial factor is that the unsprung mass is also rotating and has inertia, which also has to be managed. For IFR Automotive, which is focused on lightweight technology, the main driver behind our technical innovations is weight reduction. Whether a disc or drum, it’s a very heavy component located in the most critical part of the vehicle. As well as providing the fundamental active safety and vehicle dynamic benefits of lightweight brakes, IFR’s advanced twin-disc system, or TBD, also provides a significant step change improvement in resistance to fading at medium and high speed, comparable to that achieved when the industry changed from drum to disc brakes. The improved fade resistance compared with a conventional disc system is one of the major benefits resulting from the rapid cooling delivered by IFR’s twin-disc brake system."
http://www.just-auto.com/interview/qa-with-ifr-aut...
"IFR Automotive has developed and patented its Twin Brake Disc (TBD) system. As the name implies the lightweight stainless steel brake system comprises twin discs, each with turbine shaped slots for maximum air cooling and braking efficiency. To find out more, Matthew Beecham talked with Ignacio Fernandez of IFR Automotive.
The principal characteristic of this design is that heat is dissipated quickly and does not accumulate, thereby permitting much thinner discs. The result is a significant weight saving of more than 70% compared with normal brake systems.
Having more than one brake disc also makes the calliper requirements smaller, and hence much lighter, further reducing the total mass of the brakes, which in turn helps to reduce the overall weight of the vehicle.
In addition, a lower unsprung mass is immensely beneficial for a vehicle’s ride and handling performance.
The claimed advantages of this system are:
maximum air cooling and braking efficiency;
improved active safety from improved handling of the vehicle;
more traction from increased contact of the wheel with the road;
improved ride comfort;
less fuel consumption and fewer emissions through ultra lightweight design;
better feel of the brakes for the driver by avoiding the need for a servo;
increased durability of brake pads and discs.
On the company’s Aspid technology demonstrator vehicle, the company claims that the combination of the TBD brake system and patented DLR wishbone suspension, results in a very low unsprung mass which matches that of an F1 car built in composite materials – yet on the Aspid this has been achieved with steel brake discs and an aluminium suspension. Compared with normal road car brake systems, the weight saving is more than 70%.
j-a: What are the forces driving innovation in foundation braking for passenger cars and light trucks? Are those drivers the same for every car segment?
Ignacio Fernandez: In terms of further development, the major challenge is about reducing the weight of the system, which is probably the most crucial factor for two main reasons. The first relates to the unsprung mass of the vehicle, which has a significant impact on the forces transmitted to the chassis, which are proportional to the unsprung mass. Consequently, the unsprung mass of the brakes has a big impact on the set-up of the suspension and the vehicle dynamics generally, influencing both active safety and ride comfort.
The second crucial factor is that the unsprung mass is also rotating and has inertia, which also has to be managed. For IFR Automotive, which is focused on lightweight technology, the main driver behind our technical innovations is weight reduction. Whether a disc or drum, it’s a very heavy component located in the most critical part of the vehicle. As well as providing the fundamental active safety and vehicle dynamic benefits of lightweight brakes, IFR’s advanced twin-disc system, or TBD, also provides a significant step change improvement in resistance to fading at medium and high speed, comparable to that achieved when the industry changed from drum to disc brakes. The improved fade resistance compared with a conventional disc system is one of the major benefits resulting from the rapid cooling delivered by IFR’s twin-disc brake system."
900T-R said:
I drove a BMW X5 with a similar twin-disc front brake system developed by Delhpi, at their ride/drive event back in 2004... Not sure why the idea never was taken any further by them and/or the OEMs it was aimed at.
That idea has been available for motorbikes for at least 7 years. Never took off.brianjohns said:
New Double disc brakes can allow for even better braking using smaller wheels and tires:
http://www.just-auto.com/interview/qa-with-ifr-aut...
"IFR Automotive has developed and patented its Twin Brake Disc (TBD) system. As the name implies the lightweight stainless steel brake system comprises twin discs, each with turbine shaped slots for maximum air cooling and braking efficiency. To find out more, Matthew Beecham talked with Ignacio Fernandez of IFR Automotive.
The principal characteristic of this design is that heat is dissipated quickly and does not accumulate, thereby permitting much thinner discs. The result is a significant weight saving of more than 70% compared with normal brake systems.
Having more than one brake disc also makes the calliper requirements smaller, and hence much lighter, further reducing the total mass of the brakes, which in turn helps to reduce the overall weight of the vehicle.
In addition, a lower unsprung mass is immensely beneficial for a vehicle’s ride and handling performance.
The claimed advantages of this system are:
maximum air cooling and braking efficiency;
improved active safety from improved handling of the vehicle;
more traction from increased contact of the wheel with the road;
improved ride comfort;
less fuel consumption and fewer emissions through ultra lightweight design;
better feel of the brakes for the driver by avoiding the need for a servo;
increased durability of brake pads and discs.
On the company’s Aspid technology demonstrator vehicle, the company claims that the combination of the TBD brake system and patented DLR wishbone suspension, results in a very low unsprung mass which matches that of an F1 car built in composite materials – yet on the Aspid this has been achieved with steel brake discs and an aluminium suspension. Compared with normal road car brake systems, the weight saving is more than 70%.
j-a: What are the forces driving innovation in foundation braking for passenger cars and light trucks? Are those drivers the same for every car segment?
Ignacio Fernandez: In terms of further development, the major challenge is about reducing the weight of the system, which is probably the most crucial factor for two main reasons. The first relates to the unsprung mass of the vehicle, which has a significant impact on the forces transmitted to the chassis, which are proportional to the unsprung mass. Consequently, the unsprung mass of the brakes has a big impact on the set-up of the suspension and the vehicle dynamics generally, influencing both active safety and ride comfort.
The second crucial factor is that the unsprung mass is also rotating and has inertia, which also has to be managed. For IFR Automotive, which is focused on lightweight technology, the main driver behind our technical innovations is weight reduction. Whether a disc or drum, it’s a very heavy component located in the most critical part of the vehicle. As well as providing the fundamental active safety and vehicle dynamic benefits of lightweight brakes, IFR’s advanced twin-disc system, or TBD, also provides a significant step change improvement in resistance to fading at medium and high speed, comparable to that achieved when the industry changed from drum to disc brakes. The improved fade resistance compared with a conventional disc system is one of the major benefits resulting from the rapid cooling delivered by IFR’s twin-disc brake system."
http://www.just-auto.com/interview/qa-with-ifr-aut...
"IFR Automotive has developed and patented its Twin Brake Disc (TBD) system. As the name implies the lightweight stainless steel brake system comprises twin discs, each with turbine shaped slots for maximum air cooling and braking efficiency. To find out more, Matthew Beecham talked with Ignacio Fernandez of IFR Automotive.
The principal characteristic of this design is that heat is dissipated quickly and does not accumulate, thereby permitting much thinner discs. The result is a significant weight saving of more than 70% compared with normal brake systems.
Having more than one brake disc also makes the calliper requirements smaller, and hence much lighter, further reducing the total mass of the brakes, which in turn helps to reduce the overall weight of the vehicle.
In addition, a lower unsprung mass is immensely beneficial for a vehicle’s ride and handling performance.
The claimed advantages of this system are:
maximum air cooling and braking efficiency;
improved active safety from improved handling of the vehicle;
more traction from increased contact of the wheel with the road;
improved ride comfort;
less fuel consumption and fewer emissions through ultra lightweight design;
better feel of the brakes for the driver by avoiding the need for a servo;
increased durability of brake pads and discs.
On the company’s Aspid technology demonstrator vehicle, the company claims that the combination of the TBD brake system and patented DLR wishbone suspension, results in a very low unsprung mass which matches that of an F1 car built in composite materials – yet on the Aspid this has been achieved with steel brake discs and an aluminium suspension. Compared with normal road car brake systems, the weight saving is more than 70%.
j-a: What are the forces driving innovation in foundation braking for passenger cars and light trucks? Are those drivers the same for every car segment?
Ignacio Fernandez: In terms of further development, the major challenge is about reducing the weight of the system, which is probably the most crucial factor for two main reasons. The first relates to the unsprung mass of the vehicle, which has a significant impact on the forces transmitted to the chassis, which are proportional to the unsprung mass. Consequently, the unsprung mass of the brakes has a big impact on the set-up of the suspension and the vehicle dynamics generally, influencing both active safety and ride comfort.
The second crucial factor is that the unsprung mass is also rotating and has inertia, which also has to be managed. For IFR Automotive, which is focused on lightweight technology, the main driver behind our technical innovations is weight reduction. Whether a disc or drum, it’s a very heavy component located in the most critical part of the vehicle. As well as providing the fundamental active safety and vehicle dynamic benefits of lightweight brakes, IFR’s advanced twin-disc system, or TBD, also provides a significant step change improvement in resistance to fading at medium and high speed, comparable to that achieved when the industry changed from drum to disc brakes. The improved fade resistance compared with a conventional disc system is one of the major benefits resulting from the rapid cooling delivered by IFR’s twin-disc brake system."
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