RE: Chris Harris video: Panamera Diesel

[Wills2]

jbi said:

but are they quick?

I'm looking at this from a global perspective.

Outside of the UK/western Europe... V6 powered cars are the norm.

I suspect Porsche might have trouble selling this diesel version in the rest of the world, where most look at Porsche as a "sports" brand.

We aren't in the ROTW and Porsche don't sell it where there isn't a demand for diesel cars.

[Cobnapint]

jbi said:

the point being that some people on here are claiming that the diesel Porsche is quick, and my argument is that when mum in her minivan can keep up with you... it's not.

No, the point some people are trying to make on here, including CH, is that it is quick 'enough'.

Just again for the hard of hearing......thats 'quick' followed immediately by 'enough'.

Everybody after 3. One, two, three,......Quick - Enough. Geddit, goddit, good.

[edo]

Cobnapint said:

jbi said:

as previously mentioned in this thread... a bog standard Toyota Camry from the factory will do 0-60 mph in 5.7 seconds and the quarter Mile in 14.1

your Porsche is slower than this

The 'my car is faster than yours' mindset should be reserved for the school playground, and totally misses the point of the Panny Diesel.

Anybody on here who thinks they can drive around on British roads these days using the full performance potential of their high performance car is living in la-la land. I should know, I've owned a few. You just cannot use the power, unless that is, you have the funds for the speeding fines and driver rehabilitation courses. Not only that, you have to get used to being stared at like you were some kind of anti-social tt. And I should know that as well, because I used to do it.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but the Cayenne diesel I drive at the moment is without any doubt whatsoever, the best daily driver I have ever owned. And I have no reason to doubt the Panamera diesel would merit the same comment.

exactly.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Cobnapint said:

jbi said:

the point being that some people on here are claiming that the diesel Porsche is quick, and my argument is that when mum in her minivan can keep up with you... it's not.

No, the point some people are trying to make on here, including CH, is that it is quick 'enough'.

Just again for the hard of hearing......thats 'quick' followed immediately by 'enough'.

Everybody after 3. One, two, three,......Quick - Enough. Geddit, goddit, good.

for many it will be

for some like my mum it would be too fast

for others it will be too slow

i put 1000 miles on a A6 V6 biturbo turbo earlier in the year, it was bloody horrible, it was more like sailing a ship than driving a car

[Cobnapint]

Dave Hedgehog said:

for many it will be

for some like my mum it would be too fast

for others it will be too slow

i put 1000 miles on a A6 V6 biturbo turbo earlier in the year, it was bloody horrible, it was more like sailing a ship than driving a car

You mean the engine was st or the A6 didn't like the corners.?

And was this the BiTDi engine that the Panny is supposed to be getting?

[Dave Hedgehog]

Cobnapint said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

for many it will be

for some like my mum it would be too fast

for others it will be too slow

i put 1000 miles on a A6 V6 biturbo turbo earlier in the year, it was bloody horrible, it was more like sailing a ship than driving a car

You mean the engine was st or the A6 didn't like the corners.?

And was this the BiTDi engine that the Panny is supposed to be getting?

it had 100 miles on it when i picked it up in feb of this year, no idea what variant it was just what it said on the back

i couldn't get on with the power delivery, i found it on and off and often couldn't get on it when i needed it, ill put my hands up that a lot of that could be me

it wasnt so much handling more aiming it at a corner closing your eyes and hoping it went round, had less feedback than an xbox controller

however if you wanted a barge for wafting around in it was superb, just not my cup of tea

[SlipStream77]

Dave Hedgehog said:

10 secs is the acceptable target time for a normal road car, for me of course

for a biker this would be considered very slow

So an F40 is unacceptably slow for a 'normal' road car?

Back on topic, I had a quick look at a Panamera S recently, I thought it was pretty nice. It was big, heavy too judging from the size of the front brakes.

I looked up the performance stat's for the Turbo - 60mph in 3.3!

I had no idea it was that fast - an impressive piece of kit.

[blearyeyedboy]

jbi said:

as previously mentioned in this thread... a bog standard Toyota Camry from the factory will do 0-60 mph in 5.7 seconds and the quarter Mile in 14.1

your Porsche is slower than (insert lots of pics of Japanese cars made for the American market here)

Normally I agree with a lot of what you write jbl, but these comparisons are ridiculous. I could equally compare these American market cars to a far slower Pug 106 Rallye and point out that the Pug is a far better steer around B Roads.

On a good B-Road blast, none of these Jap/American market creations would see which way the Panamera went. On any European motorway, you couldn't use any more performance than the Panamera has unless your commute is on a derestricted autobahn, and even then you'd have to be on serious brave pills to need more than the Panamera's top speed. If you want a track car, you wouldn't have a big four door saloon anyway.

Going fast in a straight line can be helpful but is neither necessary nor sufficient to make a good car.

Edited by blearyeyedboy on Sunday 16th September 23:26

[jbi]

I don't doubt it's a great car... there's a hell of a lot of engineering gone into the thing.

Trouble is... your average Yank/Russian/Chinese/Korean joe doesn't really care much for handling when punting from stoplight to stoplight.

I suppose of course there is always the petrol version for these markets... but on a personal level I view Porsche as sports brand, or at least... applies a sporting slant to whatever they set their engineering bods onto.

If European legislation and taxes were not so draconian... does anyone think Porsche would really have bothered?

[blearyeyedboy]

jbi said:

Trouble is... your average Yank/Russian/Chinese/Korean joe doesn't really care much for handling when punting from stoplight to stoplight.

If they're in a spotlight, they won't care much for a Camry either. These aren't average Joes.

jbi said:

If European legislation and taxes were not so draconian... does anyone think Porsche would really have bothered?

No. But as my gran used to say... If it wasn't for "if", the sky would fall in. Those are the conditions of the European market and wishing otherwise isn't going to change it. Porsche have done a good job in the constraints they have.

[cerb4.5lee]

Spoof said:

Seriously, anything that won't do 100 in under 10 isn't quick?

I also agree with Dave aswell, 10 secs to 100 is the same benchmark i use & i think he is right, my old Cerb is supposed to do 0 to 100 in less than 10 secs & my new Z4 M does it between 11 & 12 secs to 100 & believe me i think the Z4 is reletively slow in a straight line, fine in the bends its just lacks ultimate power on the straights especially compared to the Cerb.

For me you can never have too much power, for most people 15 secs to 100 is quick, for me it isnt.

[tyrewrecker]

cerb4.5lee said:

my new Z4 M does it between 11 & 12 secs to 100 & believe me i think the Z4 is reletively slow in a straight line

[cerb4.5lee]

tyrewrecker said:

cerb4.5lee said:

my new Z4 M does it between 11 & 12 secs to 100 & believe me i think the Z4 is reletively slow in a straight line

Glad i made you laugh! they are quite porky for a sports car though, i am glad they do a remap & delimit for it though that might help a bit!!... compared to my 520d it feels nippy...

[tyrewrecker]

cerb4.5lee said:

Glad i made you laugh! they are quite porky for a sports car though, i am glad they do a remap & delimit for it though that might help a bit!!... compared to my 520d it feels nippy...

You certainly did, that was by no mean's an exaggeration. The forces experienced with a 11.5 sec to 100car compared to 10sec won't be hugely different (power delivery dependant / car size etc) so I can't see how on earth that small of a difference could be described as you have done. Perhaps you wanted to make me laugh, it worked!

[Budleigh]

jbi said:

as previously mentioned in this thread... a bog standard Toyota Camry from the factory will do 0-60 mph in 5.7 seconds and the quarter Mile in 14.1

your Porsche is slower than this



and also slower than this honda accord (0-60 mph 6.1 Quarter Mile 14.6)



Even the Honda Odyssey MPV will do 0-60 in 7.3 and the quarter Mile in 15.6

Edited by jbi on Sunday 16th September 14:40

Some rather Clarkson-esque hyperbole. Yes, the top-of-the-range Camry V6 will do that time - it should, it's got 200kw. It's also a USDM Camry that isn't really marketed in most other countries. The same argument applies to the Accord, and yes, while that minivan/mpv is rather swift, are you likely to run into one on a UK road?

[vinnie83]

cerb4.5lee said:

I also agree with Dave aswell, 10 secs to 100 is the same benchmark i use & i think he is right, my old Cerb is supposed to do 0 to 100 in less than 10 secs & my new Z4 M does it between 11 & 12 secs to 100 & believe me i think the Z4 is reletively slow in a straight line, fine in the bends its just lacks ultimate power on the straights especially compared to the Cerb.

For me you can never have too much power, for most people 15 secs to 100 is quick, for me it isnt.

Maybe that is down to the power delivery?

The Cerb is a big engined and light car, whereas the M is a revvy and peaky engine.

I think the power delivery can have a huge effect on the way a car feels - my old E55 AMG had brutal power delivery - and to me my 997 turbo feels slightly slower, which it clearly isn't.

[vinnie83]

cerb4.5lee said:

Glad i made you laugh! they are quite porky for a sports car though, i am glad they do a remap & delimit for it though that might help a bit!!... compared to my 520d it feels nippy...

I doubt it... it's a very highly tuned N/A engine, so a remap won't offer much increase.

I had a remap, de-cat supersprint exhaust, induction kit with pipes from ducts where the fog lights were on my 3.0 M3, and whilst it probably made a difference on the rolling road, or VS another M3, it didn't really feel any faster.

[J4CKO]

I think Porsche as a brand is changing, they nearly went bump a few times, they cant make enough money out of flogging 57 varieties of 911. There are rumblings about "core brand values", "Heritage" and "Sacrilege" but most of this is from Porsche beards with an old 911 who possibly dont have the means or need to buy a new one anyway so arent the target market, same thing is happening with Land Rover, Bentley etc.

There have been a lot of casualties in the car market over the last few years, Porsche thankfully isnt one of them, mainly due to the master stroke of sticking a 911 front end on a VW Touareg and flogging them for 60 to 100 grand.

I have an old 944, which like the 924 before it "is not a proper Porsche" though now the beards have accepted them a bit to concentrate their ire on the new imposters, even when its just 911's they get all snobby about which model, even if it is all the hallowed 993, only certain models will do, at that point it comes down to provenance and whether it was Ferry's personal wheels that he polished himself.

Porsche is about more than old 911's, it is a car company same as any other which exists to make money by providing a desirable product to potential customers, they build models they can sell and they seem to be shifting a fair few Panamera's including the diesels.

[cerb4.5lee]

vinnie83 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I also agree with Dave aswell, 10 secs to 100 is the same benchmark i use & i think he is right, my old Cerb is supposed to do 0 to 100 in less than 10 secs & my new Z4 M does it between 11 & 12 secs to 100 & believe me i think the Z4 is reletively slow in a straight line, fine in the bends its just lacks ultimate power on the straights especially compared to the Cerb.

For me you can never have too much power, for most people 15 secs to 100 is quick, for me it isnt.

Maybe that is down to the power delivery?

The Cerb is a big engined and light car, whereas the M is a revvy and peaky engine.

I think the power delivery can have a huge effect on the way a car feels - my old E55 AMG had brutal power delivery - and to me my 997 turbo feels slightly slower, which it clearly isn't.

I agree, not much low down pull compared to the cerb but when you really chase the redline the zed does get up & go nicely, there is a massive power to weight difference with the two cars & you cant hide that, side by side the Cerb would batter the zed.

Its one hell of an engine in the Z4 though i dont think i will ever get bored of wringing it out, i love it!

[cerb4.5lee]

vinnie83 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Glad i made you laugh! they are quite porky for a sports car though, i am glad they do a remap & delimit for it though that might help a bit!!... compared to my 520d it feels nippy...

I doubt it... it's a very highly tuned N/A engine, so a remap won't offer much increase.

I had a remap, de-cat supersprint exhaust, induction kit with pipes from ducts where the fog lights were on my 3.0 M3, and whilst it probably made a difference on the rolling road, or VS another M3, it didn't really feel any faster.

I thought DMS did a chip for 370bhp so not a bad increase, but as you say turbos are the way forward when it comes to tuning, lovely 911 by the way Vinnie i bet that shifts nicely!! & puts a big smile on your face!