RE: BMW puts the OBD fix in
Discussion
kambites said:
I would not buy a car from a company that doesn't seem to care that its cars are easy to steal when many of its customers do care, because it doesn't bode well for the rest of their customer service.
The vast majority of BMW customers, even after watchdog, aren't aware of the issue.Ironically one of the better service providers in IT world is poor with its security fixes, but then again most custmers don't understand terms like buffer overrun.
The Register are now running the story (with links to here):
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/17/bmw_car_th...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/17/bmw_car_th...
Well done BMW. And your lack of support / assistance and responsiveness when required : "all our vehicles comply with existent legislation bla bla bla.. corporate BS.. bla bla bla.. no update is or will be made available as it's not necessary, but you can change your locks for 1500 pounds thankyouverymuch"
After being a pretty decent client (a brand new MCS in 2008, a used V8 M3 in 2010 and a brand new 520d for the family in Jan 12) I didnt expect such a dismissive/uncurteous attitude. I have sold the M3, will NOT buy another one nor buy one of their other models any time soon. I will NOT advise my family or friends to buy any of their cars either.
They managed this issue poorly and I really hope they get hit hard on a reputation level and that BMW UK Customer Service will take a massive slap in their face from HQ.
After being a pretty decent client (a brand new MCS in 2008, a used V8 M3 in 2010 and a brand new 520d for the family in Jan 12) I didnt expect such a dismissive/uncurteous attitude. I have sold the M3, will NOT buy another one nor buy one of their other models any time soon. I will NOT advise my family or friends to buy any of their cars either.
They managed this issue poorly and I really hope they get hit hard on a reputation level and that BMW UK Customer Service will take a massive slap in their face from HQ.
margerison said:
The Register are now running the story (with links to here):
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/17/bmw_car_th...
Thank you for that, I'd not seen it. Makes a change from people repeating stuff that's been said many times before on the other threads on this issue over the last few months. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/17/bmw_car_th...
audidoody said:
I would be interested in finding out why none of these dozens of stolen Beemers appear to have been recovered and the gang(s) caught. and charged. Shirley some of them must have been fitted with Trackers?
yup, but by the time the tracker has been activated, the car will either be de-trackered or in a container heading abroad.audidoody said:
I would be interested in finding out why none of these dozens of stolen Beemers appear to have been recovered and the gang(s) caught. and charged. Shirley some of them must have been fitted with Trackers?
Several of them have been.Many of the cars are recovered. But if it's gone for more than a week it's pretty much gone for good.
I got one back last week after a vigilant member of public noticed a BMW had changed it's plates during the day.
Just need to clear a couple of things up. The BMW dealers tools (ista) can NOT write to blank keys nor can BMW dealers in the UK obtain blank keys from BMW UK.
If someone turns up at a dealer and wants a key the dealer orders the key from BMW to the vehicle vin number,this is after the person ordering the key has produced registration documents and photo I.D. The key is programmed by BMW UK then sent to the dealer then delivered to the customer. The car does not need to go into the workshop.
As I understand the EU block exemption laws say that the customer should not be forced to go to a dealer to obtain a key so BMW have had to make the source code of the security system available to tool manufactures so tools can be made to enable keys to be made to people outside the dealer network.
This is where the security is compromised because anyone can buy those tools.
If someone turns up at a dealer and wants a key the dealer orders the key from BMW to the vehicle vin number,this is after the person ordering the key has produced registration documents and photo I.D. The key is programmed by BMW UK then sent to the dealer then delivered to the customer. The car does not need to go into the workshop.
As I understand the EU block exemption laws say that the customer should not be forced to go to a dealer to obtain a key so BMW have had to make the source code of the security system available to tool manufactures so tools can be made to enable keys to be made to people outside the dealer network.
This is where the security is compromised because anyone can buy those tools.
Hodgson 100 said:
As I understand the EU block exemption laws say that the customer should not be forced to go to a dealer to obtain a key so BMW have had to make the source code of the security system available to tool manufactures so tools can be made to enable keys to be made to people outside the dealer network.
Where does it say this?I can find no reference To (key) security systems in the EU directive.
Scuffers said:
Where does it say this?
I can find no reference To (key) security systems in the EU directive.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2002R1400:20040501:EN:PDFI can find no reference To (key) security systems in the EU directive.
"In order to protect effective competition on the market for repair
and maintenance services and to prevent foreclosure of independent
repairers, motor vehicle manufacturers must allow all
interested independent operators to have full access to all technical
information, diagnostic and other equipment, tools,
including all relevant software, and training required for the
repair and maintenance of motor vehicles. Independent operators
who must be allowed such access include in particular independent
repairers, manufacturers of repair equipment or tools,"
It goes on to say that:
"It is, however, legitimate and
proper for them to withhold access to technical information
which might allow a third party to bypass or disarm on-board
anti-theft devices, to recalibrate electronic devices or to tamper
with devices which for instance limit the speed of a motor
vehicle, unless protection against theft, re-calibration or
tampering can be attained by other less restrictive means. Intellectual
property rights and rights regarding know-how including
those which relate to the aforementioned devices must be exercised
in a manner which avoids any type of abuse."
So a tool manufacturer can legitimately obtain the information to make tools thatcould have a legitimate use then that tool can be sold on ebay to anybody!
Hodgson 100 said:
Scuffers said:
Where does it say this?
I can find no reference To (key) security systems in the EU directive.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2002R1400:20040501:EN:PDFI can find no reference To (key) security systems in the EU directive.
"It is, however, legitimate and proper for them to withhold access to technical information which might allow a third party to bypass or disarm on-board anti-theft devices
Edited by Scuffers on Friday 21st September 20:58
I know it's a ballache, but if I was worried my car could be taken this way I'd take out the fuse for the fuel pump supply, or disconnect the crank sensor lead, or the ignition coil pack leads, or indeed anything else that will cripple the engine.
Most car thieves want to minimise the time they spend faffing about with the car. Pop locks, do the OBD-and-key thing, drive off before anyone notices.
If the engine won't fire up it's unlikely they'll hang about fixing it - for all they know the car could be well and truly f***ed and so not worth stealing.
With older cars we used to wire in little hidden switches to kill the starter solenoid or coil supply. Could make a comeback...
Most car thieves want to minimise the time they spend faffing about with the car. Pop locks, do the OBD-and-key thing, drive off before anyone notices.
If the engine won't fire up it's unlikely they'll hang about fixing it - for all they know the car could be well and truly f***ed and so not worth stealing.
With older cars we used to wire in little hidden switches to kill the starter solenoid or coil supply. Could make a comeback...
Hodgson 100 said:
Just need to clear a couple of things up. The BMW dealers tools (ista) can NOT write to blank keys nor can BMW dealers in the UK obtain blank keys from BMW UK.
If someone turns up at a dealer and wants a key the dealer orders the key from BMW to the vehicle vin number,this is after the person ordering the key has produced registration documents and photo I.D. The key is programmed by BMW UK then sent to the dealer then delivered to the customer. The car does not need to go into the workshop.
As I understand the EU block exemption laws say that the customer should not be forced to go to a dealer to obtain a key so BMW have had to make the source code of the security system available to tool manufactures so tools can be made to enable keys to be made to people outside the dealer network.
This is where the security is compromised because anyone can buy those tools.
If I want to replace a key on my Rover 75 I have to have an agent send off proof of ownership to BMW. Likewise you can't get a Merc key other from a MB dealer - (other than a few people who have to take bits off the car but it's a kludge not an official way of getting a key).If someone turns up at a dealer and wants a key the dealer orders the key from BMW to the vehicle vin number,this is after the person ordering the key has produced registration documents and photo I.D. The key is programmed by BMW UK then sent to the dealer then delivered to the customer. The car does not need to go into the workshop.
As I understand the EU block exemption laws say that the customer should not be forced to go to a dealer to obtain a key so BMW have had to make the source code of the security system available to tool manufactures so tools can be made to enable keys to be made to people outside the dealer network.
This is where the security is compromised because anyone can buy those tools.
I don't buy this.
The thing i'm most annoyed about is that BMW have stated it is only 07 onwards cars that are affected by this. Now, i know this is crap, because there are plenty of people who have had their 05->56 cars stolen. I have a feeling they have introduced this 07 onwards cut off date because they think that 5 year old cars are at most risk. That's right, an 07 318d is more at risk than a 56 335i.
Dear Mr Shambolic
You may have seen in the news recently that some BMW car models are unfortunately affected by a security flaw. As a customer and owner of a BMW we wanted to make you aware of this so you can take the necessary precautions and help prevent thefts of BMWs.
BMW has advised that the security breach only affects models which were built from 2006 to September 2011.
The security flaw lies with the electronic key. A device now exists which enables its user to access a car's on-board computer and program a blank key. In the wrong hands, a thief can steal a BMW in just a few minutes using the device.
How you can reduce the threat of car theft:
BMW has announced that they will offer a free upgrade of security features for cars affected. Therefore we would recommend that you contact your BMW service department or your nearest BMW dealer who will be able to advise you further.
Visit the BMW website to find out more.
Email from my insurance today!!!
You may have seen in the news recently that some BMW car models are unfortunately affected by a security flaw. As a customer and owner of a BMW we wanted to make you aware of this so you can take the necessary precautions and help prevent thefts of BMWs.
BMW has advised that the security breach only affects models which were built from 2006 to September 2011.
The security flaw lies with the electronic key. A device now exists which enables its user to access a car's on-board computer and program a blank key. In the wrong hands, a thief can steal a BMW in just a few minutes using the device.
How you can reduce the threat of car theft:
BMW has announced that they will offer a free upgrade of security features for cars affected. Therefore we would recommend that you contact your BMW service department or your nearest BMW dealer who will be able to advise you further.
Visit the BMW website to find out more.
Email from my insurance today!!!
shambolic said:
Dear Mr Shambolic
...
Email from my insurance today!!!
With BMW not exactly showing ownership on the issue, it's not all that surprising that the insurers are trying to push things along and mitigate their exposure. Of course if you now don't get the work done by BMW, good luck getting them to pay out... after all, they've now warned you about it and advised you to get the issue sorted....
Email from my insurance today!!!
masermartin said:
With BMW not exactly showing ownership on the issue, it's not all that surprising that the insurers are trying to push things along and mitigate their exposure. Of course if you now don't get the work done by BMW, good luck getting them to pay out... after all, they've now warned you about it and advised you to get the issue sorted.
I think most owners who are aware of the problem will get the update/upgrade done ASAP.However, 'ASAP' relies on BMW coming up with what's required to fix the problem,which at the moment doesn't look like being any time soon,if you believe what some @BMW are saying.
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