RE: BMW puts the OBD fix in

[Zato]

carinaman said:

Zato said:

After a few conversations with BMW regarding this issue I have voted with my feet. BMW can go f%^k themselves.

Really? If you look on the other threads it seemed quite a few people would rather have their BMWs taken that way than have their dwellings broken into to get the keys.

The conversations with BMW are quite bizzare. They state in emails there is no problem with their cars and they cannot be stolen without a key. They advised i speak to the local police regarding security if i am worried about purchasing a new bmw. Police advised i do not purchase a bmw given the thefts in my area !!!!!! Therefore BMW were excluded from my search to replace my current BMW.

If bmw had said a couple of months ago "we are aware of the problem and a fix will be available soon" then they would have had a car order.

Oh well

[surveyor]

E500 TAT said:

surveyor said:

What was all that garbage about banks and finance?

If they want the car back they will get it back. And in the rare instance that they have to snatch the car I'm assuming they would just order a new key, being able to prove that they are the legal owner.

The software means a new key has to be programmed into the car you can't just have a key cut, it's not a 'key' anymore is it?

Hence it being a problem now.

Worse case scenario. Said finance company will pick up car on a flat bed. Dealer will supply a key, and obviously program it in. Finance company will add cost of key to account.

This happens very rarely - most people when confronted with a burly bloke, know he'll be coming sometime, know they have not been paying for the car will hand over at least one key...

[80quattro]

surveyor said:

HowMuchLonger said:

Do finance houses really keep a spare key for cars that they have lent money on?
Do finance houses really want to recover their assets this way. What on earth is wrong with the traditional flat bed recovery.

DO they bks. I think Chris Harris has made up this part of the story!

Maybe Monkey's finance company kept the spare key for his Porsche....

[mjb1]

So, post 2011 cars don't have the problem. Which means that BMW have known about the problem for a year, and fixed it back then (in new cars). But despite it being obvious there was an issue with older cars, their official line has been that there wasn't. So they were lying. And they only admitted there was a fault after they were hounded by the media, despite individuals trying to raise the issue with them for months. And then they miraculously have a fix 5 minutes after it's being lambasted on national TV?

Basically BMW didn't give a st about their customer's cars. It wouldn't have cost them that much to make the security update available - it's been fixed with software and it wouldn't need to be a full on safety recall. Their attitude has done them no favours at all. I do wonder if the cars on dealers' forecourts had had the software update on the quiet though, as thefts of those hasn't been a mentioned (publically at least).

[0a]

Munich said:

I thought that but apparently the OCB has to be located where it is by law.

As far as I'm aware the law doesn't say it has to be located where you can break a window and use it without setting the alarm off.

As much as I'll have a good moan about the EU, in this case it's BMW's balls up.

[DanS]

HowMuchLonger said:

Do finance houses really keep a spare key for cars that they have lent money on?
Do finance houses really want to recover their assets this way. What on earth is wrong with the traditional flat bed recovery.

No they don't, mr Harris pulled that fact out of.... Thin air.

[BS75]

OdramaSwimLaden said:

petrolsniffer said:

Appauling they're too embarressed to do a recall....

If it was a few cars they would probably attempt it. The fact is that there are 100's of thousands of cars out there which would need to be done. Just to many........

I don't think paul is involved. And as far as I remember from my time in the 'trade recalls are only permitted by law for issues that affect safety. For example the Toyota brake thing. Your car being nicked when you're asleep isn't affecting your safety when driving it, hence no recall. Updates are simply done when you go into a dealer - if you never go to one, you don't generally get them - and that goes for all marques.

[edb49]

I predict in the next 12 months BMW will have written to all owners of affected cars and invite them back to the dealerships to get the problem solved. This issue isn't going to go away for BMW, and if it's not corrected it will snowball out of control. (More press reports of stolen BMWs, increased premiums, windows being smashed on 'fixed' cars but not being nicked...)

[Reardy Mister]

Al 450 said:

The position of the OBD port in a vehicle is mandated by European and Federal law i.e homologation requirements so car makers have only limited choice.

As someone with intimate knowledge of this kind of thing (from an OEM point of view) I can tell you that car makers have been petitioning the EU and the government for years as they were concerned about this king of thing happening. However all protests fell on deaf ears mainly due to the 'right to repair' campaign which in theory yes is good for consumers but the legislation is ill-conceived in many ways. The specialist Police vehicle crime units were also up in arms when the law was passed for obvious reasons. See http://www.r2rc.eu/

I would also say that there are legal and other (sound) reasons for needing access to a live OBD port with even the car locked (think about losing your keys and an official BMW garage needing to reprogram a new set). The fault here is not with the design of the vehicle (aside from the alarm), it is with the BMW rectification / diagnostics equipment for allowing in effect a single authentication factor method of relearning/learning new keys. Most manufacturers will require a secure one off code to allow the process to start which is normally obtained direct from the manufacturer.

The pressure for a fix will have come not from the consumer or Watchdog but from the insurance companies and Thatcham in particular.

One of the most worthwhile posts so far on this subject.

[Lunja]

I wonder if part of the reason for the delayed reaction is that BMW didn't want to negatively affect the pr they were due to, and indeed did get, from their sizeable investment in the Olympics. Does anyone know if their transport and sponsorship packages were signed before the OBD port thefts began?

[WeirdNeville]

kmpowell said:

danielj58 said:

So why is it BMWs are easier to steal? Just silly placement of the OBD port?

1. OBD port is live
2. Alarm has a blackspot that means it won't trigger if the window is smashed ins a certain place and area (where the OBD port is!).

1+2 = 3. Thief with these...



... breaks in and drives car away within minutes.

So, given that part of the problem is the shoddy alarm, I am curious to know how this so called 'update' cures the sensor problem, not just the live OBD port?!?

Neither of those are the core problem.

The core problem is that devices similar to those above allow a key (any compatible BMW key - one from another car or whatever) to be "injected" into the Car Access and Security system so tht the car accepts it immediately as a trusted key. The key then starts and locks/unlocks the car like any other key. You don't need an existing key, you don't need any authentication, you just need the device and a spare key to hand. This is a security flaw or breach - Audis, Mercedes, VW's, are NOT stolen by this method. they are not vulnerable to having a key coded to the car in this manner. There is an ecryption process to protect the security system that is evidently flawed, hacked or easily exploited.

OBD ports are always live. The one in my Subaru is always live. They have to be - it's part of the specification of an OBD port.

The alarm blackspot exacerbates this problem by allowing you to reach in through a partially broken window to plug the device in without triggering the alarm (and break the window without triggering the alarm, go figure?!)
There are indications that there are other methods by which thieves open doors, windows, or cause the car to unlock (or not lock in the first place as you leave it) all of which combine to make it a thieves dream.

[AutoClouseau]

HowMuchLonger said:

Do finance houses really keep a spare key for cars that they have lent money on?
Do finance houses really want to recover their assets this way. What on earth is wrong with the traditional flat bed recovery.

As far as using the equipment that we are talking about here, I don't know anybody in this country that would or uses it for repo, in the US it's more common not to deal face to face with the hirer and I can see something like this being used legitimately.
As far as keeping a spare key, there are some sub prime lenders that do keep spare keys and place trackers in the vehilcles in case of default, Moneybarn (Duncton) are one of them, however there are a few other lenders who also are not adversed to similar practices, (how do you think they would protect themselves when they do a non status lease deal?)

Some manufactures are able to supply working coded keys, others can't, hence the need to get one sorted/keep one back at the time of supply.

In the real world, defaulting customers are just happy to hand over the keys with a no hassle attitude and accept the vehicle must go back, however sadly there are a few of them that are hell bent on not paying and drive a nice car for free. Tilt and slides can work in most circumstances, but in underground car parks, or if the car finds its way to Spain or further afield, a spare key is the easiest route.

[LooneyTunes]

Wow - this will come as a surprise to my local dealer.

Just a fortnight ago, when one of our cars was in for some work, the sales chap who trotted over whilst I was having a nose round the new cars unconvincingly claimed never to have heard of any theft issues...

I wonder if he'll be equally surprised that if we decide to buy another BMW in the future (which looks unlikely any time soon given this debacle) it won't be from them?

[donutsina911]

AutoClouseau said:

As far as keeping a spare key, there are some sub prime lenders that do keep spare keys and place trackers in the vehilcles in case of default, Moneybarn (Duncton) are one of them, however there are a few other lenders who also are not adversed to similar practices, (how do you think they would protect themselves when they do a non status lease deal?)

I can assure you Moneybarn do not keep spare keys or place trackers in cars. This practice was phased out years ago and applied to chunky lends on Ferrari/Bentley type cars..

[Ed.]

edb49 said:

I predict in the next 12 months BMW will have written to all owners of affected cars and invite them back to the dealerships to get the problem solved. This issue isn't going to go away for BMW, and if it's not corrected it will snowball out of control. (More press reports of stolen BMWs, increased premiums, windows being smashed on 'fixed' cars but not being nicked...)

There's a shiney new fix available in a range of greys and blacks

[carinaman]

WeirdNeville said:

Neither of those are the core problem.

Thank you for the explanation and adding something new. I learnt something and understood it.

[samuelellis]

0a said:

Munich said:

I thought that but apparently the OCB has to be located where it is by law.

As far as I'm aware the law doesn't say it has to be located where you can break a window and use it without setting the alarm off.

As much as I'll have a good moan about the EU, in this case it's BMW's balls up.

As he said

In my Mundane it is on a pop down thing on the trim under the steering wheel - this does require full access to the car to access it and in my parents 206 it is behind a large piece of trim you need to remove

To access the port on both of those cars would cause the alarm to trigger so putting the port in a alarm blackspot is bad design by BMW IMO

[Guvernator]

samuelellis said:

As he said

In my Mundane it is on a pop down thing on the trim under the steering wheel - this does require full access to the car to access it and in my parents 206 it is behind a large piece of trim you need to remove

To access the port on both of those cars would cause the alarm to trigger so putting the port in a alarm blackspot is bad design by BMW IMO

^^^^ This exactly, the EU law IS NOT to blame for this F*ck up, an alarm blackspot is not the fault of the EU. Yes the ODB port has to be a certain distance from the drivers seat but it could just have easily been placed near the centre of the dash console rather than right next to the door where someone can reach in through the broken window.

These are BMW caused problems pure and simple but you can bet your bottom dollar that they will do their damnedest to fudge the issue and try to get the EU to reverse the block exemption law so that you will no longer be able to get your car serviced at and indie but will have to get raped by main dealers instead.

[miniman]

surveyor said:

HowMuchLonger said:

Do finance houses really keep a spare key for cars that they have lent money on?
Do finance houses really want to recover their assets this way. What on earth is wrong with the traditional flat bed recovery.

DO they bks. I think Chris Harris has made up this part of the story!

Indeed. Snatching back a car doesn't involve a nice chap in a suit turning up with a new key, it involves a big angry recovery bloke and a truck.

[mjb1]

Is BMW's fix to install a hasp and staple on the OBD port?