Extreme camber

[StottyZr]

MrBrightSi said:

Mr2Mike said:

StottyZr said:

correct.

I'm not liking the stereotype that "stances are stupid durrrrrr" on this thread. Have you actually ever held conversation with anybody with a "stanced" car?

Even the word "stanced" is stupid.

"DROP IT ON ITS ARSE!!!"
"THATS SIIIICK!!!!"
"RUBBER BANDS MATE!!!"

Yeah, i've had to talk to them before.

Looks like I've been lucky then! Maybe I've mastered the art of subconsciously avoiding bellends

Edit:messed up the quoting

Edited by StottyZr on Monday 17th September 14:57

[egor110]

robmlufc said:

The crazy Swedes used to run a lot of camber in STCC Volvos.

But that was a car designed to race, it's probably going to corner at the speed a 'slammed' vw would go on the motorway before it shook itself to pieces.

With all the speed cameras and speed bumps i'd of thought the biggest craze would br seeing how comfortable you can make your car?

Off to read the paper now wearing my slippers

[StottyZr]

egor110 said:

robmlufc said:

The crazy Swedes used to run a lot of camber in STCC Volvos.

But that was a car designed to race, it's probably going to corner at the speed a 'slammed' vw would go on the motorway before it shook itself to pieces.

With all the speed cameras and speed bumps i'd of thought the biggest craze would br seeing how comfortable you can make your car?

Off to read the paper now wearing my slippers

I covered 450miles in a VW Passat on air ride yesterday.

It had by far the most comfortable suspension I have ever experianced. When I had a Toyota Avensis for a 2week period, I climbed out of the Passat and into the Avensis, and it felt like getting into a go kart. You felt every single horrible bump.

We spent most of the time at 100 on the m'way. No shaking took place.

[egor110]

but touring cars have camber added for a reason , how on earth can you compare your passatt to a racing/touring car?

Take thruxton circuit every year the tyre company tells the teams the max camber to use, every year a few teams push it and the tyres go off quicker, this is all to make the car corner faster to help win races, not to drive down the shops or take the kids to school.

[rhinochopig]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Dunlop Groundhogs



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ZC00tLj3E

Blimey that takes me back. My father had a sticker in his Series 1 landy that had that picture with the words: "You can't catch me I'm a diplomatic Roadhog". I spent many an hour sat in the back staring at it (no side windows" in the 70s and never realised it was a tyre advert. You've answered a question I never knew I needed answering. Thanks!.

[kambites]

doogz said:

A slight bit of stretch isn't just a drift only thing either, you'll find it on many race cars. An isosceles trapezium is a stiffer shape than a rectangle.

A rectangle is a isoscles trapezium.

I know what you mean, though.

[StottyZr]

egor110 said:

but touring cars have camber added for a reason , how on earth can you compare your passatt to a racing/touring car?

Take thruxton circuit every year the tyre company tells the teams the max camber to use, every year a few teams push it and the tyres go off quicker, this is all to make the car corner faster to help win races, not to drive down the shops or take the kids to school.

I was responding to your comments about shaking itself to pieces and speed bumps/comfort.

Not its racing ability

For the record the Passat estate isn't mine, I've never had a car with lowered suspension let alone "stanced"

Edit:I lie, I did have a car for 6months with lowered suspension, but I bought it that way!

[egor110]

My point is though lowering for looks is one thing , fooling yourself that it's going handle better is wrong.

If it was that easy why do race teams bother having suspension experts setting up geometry if you just buy lowered springs and wider tyres to make a car better.

[detomaso]

Dave Hedgehog said:

jaybirduk said:

This video ends it all, please watch at least for 2 mins...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQptfdSCdhs&fea...

oh dear, oh very dear.....

Edit : watch at 3:25 too

im sorry but WTF

are they lobotomising kids on mass at birth in Japan? or does red bull come with LSD in it?

why do they have house doors glued to the front?

Appear to be a polite bunch of people and I didn't spot too many kids, looked like a lot of middle aged guys enjoying themselves...

Don't really get why some people hate lowered cars so much; you don't like it, you don't do it, you don't want camber, you don't have camber.

These kind of cars are in a minority and if people are seriously getting hung up about safety then maybe we should ban vintage cars too; similar narrow contact patch, poor turning circle and braking performance.

[StottyZr]

egor110 said:

My point is though lowering for looks is one thing , fooling yourself that it's going handle better is wrong.

If it was that easy why do race teams bother having suspension experts setting up geometry if you just buy lowered springs and wider tyres to make a car better.

Yes, but cars aren't lowered/cambered to improve the handling. I think you may be missing the point :/ its for asthetics, the owners think it looks good!(granted most Phers don't)

[EDLT]

StottyZr said:

egor110 said:

My point is though lowering for looks is one thing , fooling yourself that it's going handle better is wrong.

If it was that easy why do race teams bother having suspension experts setting up geometry if you just buy lowered springs and wider tyres to make a car better.

Yes, but cars aren't lowered/cambered to improve the handling. I think you may be missing the point :/ its for asthetics, the owners think it looks good!(granted most Phers don't)

The discussion started because of posts like this:

maniac0796 said:

But Some do handle amazingly well, and if you haven't driven one, then how can you judge.

[StottyZr]

EDLT said:

StottyZr said:

egor110 said:

My point is though lowering for looks is one thing , fooling yourself that it's going handle better is wrong.

If it was that easy why do race teams bother having suspension experts setting up geometry if you just buy lowered springs and wider tyres to make a car better.

Yes, but cars aren't lowered/cambered to improve the handling. I think you may be missing the point :/ its for asthetics, the owners think it looks good!(granted most Phers don't)

The discussion started because of posts like this:

maniac0796 said:

But Some do handle amazingly well, and if you haven't driven one, then how can you judge.

What maniac said is nothing to do with my comments!

I thought his comments were struck down as nonsense pages ago.

I'm commenting on Igor's claim that stanced cars shake themselves to pieces unless they're driving very slow and are uncomfortable.

[Mr2Mike]

detomaso said:

Appear to be a polite bunch of people and I didn't spot too many kids, looked like a lot of middle aged guys enjoying themselves...

Don't really get why some people hate lowered cars so much; you don't like it, you don't do it, you don't want camber, you don't have camber.

These kind of cars are in a minority and if people are seriously getting hung up about safety then maybe we should ban vintage cars too; similar narrow contact patch, poor turning circle and braking performance.

The difference being a vintage car doesn't have narrow tyres because some impressionable youth with the IQ of a melon decided it looked fashionable.

[xRIEx]

Captain Muppet said:

xRIEx said:

I learned recently that (apparently) drifters use stretched tyres to reduce traction to help initiate a drift, so the copycat brigade think, "drifting is cool, so I'll be cool if I do the same as they do."

A certain amount of stretch cuts down on lateral shifting of the tyre under side load, and gives more consistent feedback and grip when the tyres is loaded suddenly sideways (especially during transitions). It's not done to reduce grip (not least because drifting competitions are actually set up to reward having more grip) but to increase control.

Thanks for clearing that up, I'd obviously not remembered the details properly and just made stuff up to fill the gaps

egor110 said:

My point is though lowering for looks is one thing , fooling yourself that it's going handle better is wrong.

If it was that easy why do race teams bother having suspension experts setting up geometry if you just buy lowered springs and wider tyres to make a car better.

I thought the thread was about excessive (non-functional) negative camber? I love the look of a lowered car (where it suits it, sports cars etc.), as long as the wheels don't disappear into the wheel arches.*

Assuming it doesn't mess up some other aspect of the suspension dynamics, wouldn't lowering the car and therefore the CoG help it by reducing weight transfer when cornering, braking and accelerating?


 *Citroen BX excluded**

 **Actually, I don't like how they look either, but it's not to do with the wheels and arches.

[egor110]

bx excluded, citroen developed the suspension on the c5 so that on the motorway the car automatically lowers itself, why did they bother when they could of just stuck on some wider wheels and lowered the suspension with springs rather than spend more developing the spheres.

My point is sometimes the car makers do get it right, i used to have a subaru which came as bilstein shocks, people spend loads trying different makes/heights only to come to the conclusion that the best option was to have the originals refurbished.

[Mr2Mike]

TheLastPost said:

On the other hand, would you care to hazard a guess how many melon-headed teenage Ricers have killed themselves running excessive negative camber compared to, say, how many melon-headed middle-aged, born-again-bikers die on our roads every year running state-of-the-art superbikes?

If statistics prevailed, which 'fashion' do you think it would make most sense to ban first, in the interests of reduced fatalities?

A superbike is not a fashion statement. They might look very nice, but they are inherently functional machines.

Stretched tyres and ridiculous camber is not a functional arrangement, it's done purely because the owners are fashionistas and want attention.

[StottyZr]

Can you please stop discussing the safety aspect of it.

I yawned so hard my head nearly fell off.

[Mr2Mike]

TheLastPost said:

In your opinion (as a biker).

There are plenty of people out there whose opinion is that they are merely pointless and extremely dangerous boy's toys, since their sole 'function' is to deliver entirely illegal and anti-social levels of performance. Best to make anyone who wants to travel on two wheels do it on a nice little 25bhp restricted scooter, or better yet on an environmentally friendly pushbike...

Whatever your opinion, the bare fact remains that they kill an awful lot of people, whereas I've seen no evidence that stretched tyres or extreme camber angles have yet caused any fatalities whatsoever.

You can see where I'm going with this, I hope: be careful about proposing that minority interests should be legislated out of existence for their own good, lest your minority interest finds itself next on the hitlist.

God only knows where you are trying to go with this. I haven't suggested that cars with ridiculous camber and stretched tyres either cause lots of fatal accidents or should be outlawed. OTOH I certainly have stated my opinion that the people that do this are sad attention seekers since that's all these modifications can be about.

Please explain why you are waffling on about the death rate of bikers? How is it even remotely relevant?

Out of interest, do you also believe that all cars with the capability of exceeding the speed limit (i.e. almost all cars on the road) are anti-social? Do you believe that it's mandatory to break the speed limit in order to have fun on a bike? Is a scooter exceeding the speed limit less anti-social than a superbike doing the same speed?

Edited by Mr2Mike on Tuesday 18th September 18:33

[With these feet]

Ive lowered a few of my road cars - mainly because I like to make them drive a bit more how I'd like it to. Not all suffer from excessive camber though I did fit a camber correction kit to my Accord as the rears (even from the factory were knocking out rear tyres)were too much for regular driving.
My CRX is on coilovers and had around 3 deg neg on the front - on a circuit its fine but heavy braking from high speed on the road makes the front tramline a fair bit. As its not driven on the road much its not an issue, but if it were my daily it would be reduced.

Are these guys driving all the time with the neg or is it temporary - the result of them being dropped on airbags?

It is dangerous to drive with huge amounts of neg, youre only using 1/3 to 1/2 of the tyre tread and at speed get the tyres bloody hot.

[Mr2Mike]

TheLastPost said:

Mr2Mike said:

OTOH I certainly have stated my opinion that the people that do this are sad attention seekers since that's all these modifications can be about.

That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

But can you explain to me what good you expect expressing these opinions on this forum will have?

It's a forum, that's what people do. You seem to be quite happy expressing your own opinions, do you think that privilege only applies to you?

TheLastPost said:

See above. In short: I am confused why is there such vehemence against these fashions when there is no evidence that they do major harm,

Because it's a stupid thing to do that ruins a car in order to massage the ego of the driver. Same as stupidly lowering cars. Cars are for driving and I have no issues with modifications that improve that experience, but attention seekers are a waste of space.

TheLastPost said:

It's irresponsible use of something (be it a bike, a car, a gun, or whatever) that's anti-social, not its mere existence.

Right, so nothing to do with superbikes then, why even mention them?

TheLastPost said:

Mr2Mike said:

Do you believe that it's mandatory to break the speed limit in order to have fun on a bike?

Since you ask, my personal opinion is that it's very difficult to have fun on a superbike (or a very high performance car) without breaking the speed limit on occasions: their abilities are so high that riding/driving them religiously within UK speed limits makes them seem very pedestrian indeed.

Depends on the circumstance; you can have plenty of fun on a bike (or car) staying within the limit (e.g. twisty B roads) and exceeding a speed limit does not have to be anti-social (i.e. disturbing people or putting them in danger). Reaching 60 mph from a standing start in ~3 seconds is also fun.