RE: £300k all-electric SLS only months away
Discussion
Matt UK said:
Harry H said:
Who on earth would buy such a thing. You could buy the normal version and have £150k to spend on petrol. Even at 15mpg that's getting on for 350,000 miles worth.
Neither the buyers of this version or the normal V8 verion have any real notion regarding the cost of MPG.Stingercut said:
Gary C said:
Until generation of electricity is from carbon free sources, all these electrical vehicles just move the emmisions to another place.
Pointless
And there speaks a man of reason.... We are probably 30yrs + away from a revolutionary power source for vehicles. Who knows by then, maybe those without a vested interest in the man made climate change bandwagon will face up to empiracle evidence showing climate change is driven almost entirely by the forces of nature, beyond mans control.Pointless
Climate change happens, always has done, always will do. Nothing that we do will change or influence this.
Grrrr!
Gary C said:
Until generation of electricity is from carbon free sources, all these electrical vehicles just move the emmisions to another place.
Pointless
Move them to another place and reduce them. Even the best car engines have efficiencies of 20% or so, most are much lower. Typical power plants are at >40% and combined cycle ones can approach 60%. Lose a few percent in transmission losses, few more in charging the battery and about 10 in the electric motors and you're still ahead.Pointless
Of course batteries are still currently pretty rubbish, and energy intensive to make, but that'll change.
Everyone having their own little heat engines to provide drive is a very inefficient way to use our resources.
PaulMoor said:
Ye, apart from the fact that power stations are far more efficient than a car at producing energy from fuel. Now, if you want to talk about batterys and the damage they do, that is a different question.
If I remember correctly, Oil fired power stations have a maximum thermal efficiency of about 50%, and a modern turbo diesel has a thermal efficiency of about 50%. So in that case, it is better to move the fuel around and put it directly in the vehicle, as currently transferring electricity over distances results in losses.I think petrol engines aren't as thermally efficient (30%?), but then, neither is coal (30%?), so I don't think it is a simple as power stations being more efficient users of fuel. I think as has been stated here, electric cars just move the problems around.
...although I suppose I have left out the nuclear and renewable arguments, but still, I don't think it is clear cut that electric cars are the 'solution'
Edited by psymonr on Thursday 20th September 17:23
hairykrishna said:
It's marketing b
ks to a certain extent though. They might be able to handle that charging rate but do you know anywhere that has a 150 amp 3-phase supply that will let you plug in your new Merc?
If your wiring is robust enough I believe these chargers are available now from such as Polar/Chargemaster. ks to a certain extent though. They might be able to handle that charging rate but do you know anywhere that has a 150 amp 3-phase supply that will let you plug in your new Merc?psymonr said:
If I remember correctly, Oil fired power stations have a maximum thermal efficiency of about 50%, and a modern turbo diesel has a thermal efficiency of about 50%. So in that case, it is better to move the fuel around and put it directly in the vehicle, as currently transferring electricity over distances results in losses.
I think petrol engines aren't as thermally efficient (30%?), but then, neither is coal (30%?), so I don't think it is a simple as power stations being more efficient users of fuel. I think as has been stated here, electric cars just move the problems around.
Coal is typically >40%. Drax is 46% if I remember correctly. Only really big, slow diesels get near 50%. Car ones, even turbo charged, tend to struggle to get to 40% and I think nearer 30 is typical.I think petrol engines aren't as thermally efficient (30%?), but then, neither is coal (30%?), so I don't think it is a simple as power stations being more efficient users of fuel. I think as has been stated here, electric cars just move the problems around.
Edit - I remembered wrong, Drax is only ~40 ish.
Edited by hairykrishna on Thursday 20th September 17:35
One day people will wake up and realise that there are actually quite a few electric cars about, fifteen years later they will hear a petrol engine and get nostalgic.
We need to remember that this is early days, and that perhaps the development is not about us, im 41 and by this age I have got to the realisation it isnt all about me and what I hold dear, I will pop off at some point between now and what 2040, 2050, 2060 ? I will cease to be, I will be an ex petrolhead but there will be people born today and in the following years that will be driving these cars, this is a long term shift, it is starting, it is fairly obvious, all these massive companies investing in it.
The cars will improve, the battery tech will improve, the charging infrastructure will improve becasue it has to, look at all the investment in hydrocarbon distribution, imagine in 1910 having to ensure you had fuel enough for a journey as there was little in the way of petrol stations.
Go back to 1990, the formative days of the world wide web and mobile phones and see how primitive and slow it all seems, a 9800 Baud modem versus BT Infinity now, my Nokia Cityman versus my HTC, we have 4G on the horizon, 1990 is 22 years ago, it isnt long but the technology has been advancing like wildfire from nothing but a few geeks on dial up to everyone watching TV on a phone, Videos have gone, DVD's are on their way out, I have longed for a way to watch TV over the internet without downloads and now Netflix and lovefilm are here, formative and not perfect but it is so obvious now how it has panned out, it can only improve and I think electric cars will be a long long way advanced in twenty years.
LCD TV's are the norm now, look what a bodge the CRT was, once the technology was there, ten years and the CRT was but a memory, cars are just waiting for breakthroughs in battery and charging technology, the actual motors are already developed, they just need decent suplies of juice. The generation will sort itself out as the oil and stuff will run out so it will be wind, solar, tidal, nuclear hydro etc.
the car manufacturers are now competing to get the first viable Electric Cars to market, we have the first generation in Volt, the Leaf and the Tesla, they have their downsides as we know but the whole world needs this, look how ineviatable the internet seems now.
Electric motors are brilliant, efficient, powerful, clean, quiet, simple etc, much as I love the Internal Combustion engine but it is only because of associations and nostalgia, if I had never seen one and grew up with electric motors it would seem noisy, over complex, inneficient, smelly and expensive. We need to think long term and globally and enjoy the engine whilst it lasts, and you 20 year olds now will get to seem like a proper dinosaur in 30 years when you are rattling on to 20 year olds then about your Civic type R, like my grandad telling me about his Austin 7, time moves on, it doesnt wait for you, one day you realise you are a bit of an old fart.
We need to remember that this is early days, and that perhaps the development is not about us, im 41 and by this age I have got to the realisation it isnt all about me and what I hold dear, I will pop off at some point between now and what 2040, 2050, 2060 ? I will cease to be, I will be an ex petrolhead but there will be people born today and in the following years that will be driving these cars, this is a long term shift, it is starting, it is fairly obvious, all these massive companies investing in it.
The cars will improve, the battery tech will improve, the charging infrastructure will improve becasue it has to, look at all the investment in hydrocarbon distribution, imagine in 1910 having to ensure you had fuel enough for a journey as there was little in the way of petrol stations.
Go back to 1990, the formative days of the world wide web and mobile phones and see how primitive and slow it all seems, a 9800 Baud modem versus BT Infinity now, my Nokia Cityman versus my HTC, we have 4G on the horizon, 1990 is 22 years ago, it isnt long but the technology has been advancing like wildfire from nothing but a few geeks on dial up to everyone watching TV on a phone, Videos have gone, DVD's are on their way out, I have longed for a way to watch TV over the internet without downloads and now Netflix and lovefilm are here, formative and not perfect but it is so obvious now how it has panned out, it can only improve and I think electric cars will be a long long way advanced in twenty years.
LCD TV's are the norm now, look what a bodge the CRT was, once the technology was there, ten years and the CRT was but a memory, cars are just waiting for breakthroughs in battery and charging technology, the actual motors are already developed, they just need decent suplies of juice. The generation will sort itself out as the oil and stuff will run out so it will be wind, solar, tidal, nuclear hydro etc.
the car manufacturers are now competing to get the first viable Electric Cars to market, we have the first generation in Volt, the Leaf and the Tesla, they have their downsides as we know but the whole world needs this, look how ineviatable the internet seems now.
Electric motors are brilliant, efficient, powerful, clean, quiet, simple etc, much as I love the Internal Combustion engine but it is only because of associations and nostalgia, if I had never seen one and grew up with electric motors it would seem noisy, over complex, inneficient, smelly and expensive. We need to think long term and globally and enjoy the engine whilst it lasts, and you 20 year olds now will get to seem like a proper dinosaur in 30 years when you are rattling on to 20 year olds then about your Civic type R, like my grandad telling me about his Austin 7, time moves on, it doesnt wait for you, one day you realise you are a bit of an old fart.
Stingercut said:
Gary C said:
Until generation of electricity is from carbon free sources, all these electrical vehicles just move the emmisions to another place.
Pointless
And there speaks a man of reason.... We are probably 30yrs + away from a revolutionary power source for vehicles. Who knows by then, maybe those without a vested interest in the man made climate change bandwagon will face up to empiracle evidence showing climate change is driven almost entirely by the forces of nature, beyond mans control.Pointless
As for the electricty itself most of the charging is generally done at night the main source of supply of energy is nuclear and wind. The coal burning power stations aren't used at night, even if you had it plugged in to a coal power station in the middle of the day with the kettle on. It would still be cleaner using that energy simply because it is more effective as one other aspect you forget ladies, when you refine oil you need 3-7kwh of electicity to refine a UK gallon of petrol anyway. So I think you are talking a load of horses
t. Speaking of which over 118 years ago they faced the "The Great horse manure crisis of 1894", I st you not. Then car came along and now people use Horses for pleasure rather than daily transport, it will be the same with petrol cars. enroz said:
Stingercut said:
Gary C said:
Until generation of electricity is from carbon free sources, all these electrical vehicles just move the emmisions to another place.
Pointless
And there speaks a man of reason.... We are probably 30yrs + away from a revolutionary power source for vehicles. Who knows by then, maybe those without a vested interest in the man made climate change bandwagon will face up to empiracle evidence showing climate change is driven almost entirely by the forces of nature, beyond mans control.Pointless
Climate change happens, always has done, always will do. Nothing that we do will change or influence this.
Grrrr!
Your last tank of petrol
Do you put it in a Nissan micra so you can go shopping or put it in a caterham so you can drive it down your favourite road?
As to pollution
I'll sit in an airtight room with an electric car running for a hour
You sit in an airtight room with a petrol running for an hour
Then we can discuss the local emissions issue
Great the future looks bright. Roll on 2050. A few HNW individuals roll out petrol Ferrari 250 GTO's at Silverstone worth 10 Trillion $ ea, petrol is sold by the ml. Our grand kids rock up in highly efficient milk floats with a PSXXI control system and a wide choice of fake noises.
Man will adapt and overcome, just like he always has done over the last 6.5M years. Personally, I think it will take the controlled use of Hydrogen as a fuel, controlled cold fusion ( if it can be achieved ) or something far more exciting like an anti gravity propulsion system to spice things up.
Fingers crossed the Yanks are working in Area 51 on reverse engineering an Alien 'grey' spacecraft. An anti gravity convertible Corvette with no scuttle shake would be perfect.
Man will adapt and overcome, just like he always has done over the last 6.5M years. Personally, I think it will take the controlled use of Hydrogen as a fuel, controlled cold fusion ( if it can be achieved ) or something far more exciting like an anti gravity propulsion system to spice things up.
Fingers crossed the Yanks are working in Area 51 on reverse engineering an Alien 'grey' spacecraft. An anti gravity convertible Corvette with no scuttle shake would be perfect.
The Crack Fox said:
Mass Market electric cars at a sensible price with real world performance... "coming soon" since about 1901.
They were more compettitive in 1901 manuracturing the engines were complex and people liked the smoother ride.Petrol is currently £1.41 per litre, During a recession, with no tax increases for the last couple of years. in a few years when people actually want petrol it's going to cost us. Get the development and testing done on the proof of concepts nice and early so they aren't catastrophically expensive when we actually need them.
The Crack Fox said:
Mass Market electric cars at a sensible price with real world performance... "coming soon" since about 1901.
Well, when the oil runs out, what is the alternative ?IC engines have been available so electric has taken a back seat in development terms, the car companies are waking up to the green aspect in the main but also so they want something to do when the oil runs out, we can ll take the King Canute approach but the Oil will run out, ok they keep finding it but eventually it will run out, it is finite, the Sun is also finite but its lifespan for sustaining life on this planet is measured in millions of years not handfuls of decades.
Real world performance is what, the ability to hit 80 mph and a decent range, it is kind of here now for most journeys, petrol/diesel will be around for a good while yet for longer journeys but electric will be doing the shorter, local journeys and we need to get with recharging and using cars for purposes we cant use another method for, i.e. walking or cycling.
£300K to be able to go 'up to' 65 miles in one direction using heavy, complicated & fragile batteries that cost the earth to build & recycle, and they charge using power generated by burning >73% fossil fuels.(UK figures). Insane figures. Thank goodness for wealthy early adopters who take the hit for development of this technology.
Apparently my phone's battery can last 'up to 18 days on standby' or last a 'full days moderate use'. Today it was flat in 4. Battery tech is still in the dark ages, but it's a good stepping stone to the next level. Capacitor batteries?
Apparently my phone's battery can last 'up to 18 days on standby' or last a 'full days moderate use'. Today it was flat in 4. Battery tech is still in the dark ages, but it's a good stepping stone to the next level. Capacitor batteries?
carsnapper said:
Battery tech is still in the dark ages, but it's a good stepping stone to the next level. Capacitor batteries?
This might be a good start:http://www.zdnet.com/korean-scientists-develop-fas...
With a 150 mile range the only people buying it will be sanctimonious hypocrites keen to show everyone how 'eco' they are whilst owning 10 other cars and jetting around the world.
Having to stop to recharge it (even if it 'just' takes an hour) will become irritating. You won't be able to take it far out of the city in which case why do you need 500+bhp?!
Sort the range out and the rest of the car seems great.
Having to stop to recharge it (even if it 'just' takes an hour) will become irritating. You won't be able to take it far out of the city in which case why do you need 500+bhp?!
Sort the range out and the rest of the car seems great.
J4CKO said:
One day people will wake up and realise that there are actually quite a few electric cars about, fifteen years later they will hear a petrol engine and get nostalgic.
We need to remember that this is early days, and that perhaps the development is not about us, im 41 and by this age I have got to the realisation it isnt all about me and what I hold dear, I will pop off at some point between now and what 2040, 2050, 2060 ? I will cease to be, I will be an ex petrolhead but there will be people born today and in the following years that will be driving these cars, this is a long term shift, it is starting, it is fairly obvious, all these massive companies investing in it.
The cars will improve, the battery tech will improve, the charging infrastructure will improve becasue it has to, look at all the investment in hydrocarbon distribution, imagine in 1910 having to ensure you had fuel enough for a journey as there was little in the way of petrol stations.
Go back to 1990, the formative days of the world wide web and mobile phones and see how primitive and slow it all seems, a 9800 Baud modem versus BT Infinity now, my Nokia Cityman versus my HTC, we have 4G on the horizon, 1990 is 22 years ago, it isnt long but the technology has been advancing like wildfire from nothing but a few geeks on dial up to everyone watching TV on a phone, Videos have gone, DVD's are on their way out, I have longed for a way to watch TV over the internet without downloads and now Netflix and lovefilm are here, formative and not perfect but it is so obvious now how it has panned out, it can only improve and I think electric cars will be a long long way advanced in twenty years.
LCD TV's are the norm now, look what a bodge the CRT was, once the technology was there, ten years and the CRT was but a memory, cars are just waiting for breakthroughs in battery and charging technology, the actual motors are already developed, they just need decent suplies of juice. The generation will sort itself out as the oil and stuff will run out so it will be wind, solar, tidal, nuclear hydro etc.
the car manufacturers are now competing to get the first viable Electric Cars to market, we have the first generation in Volt, the Leaf and the Tesla, they have their downsides as we know but the whole world needs this, look how ineviatable the internet seems now.
Electric motors are brilliant, efficient, powerful, clean, quiet, simple etc, much as I love the Internal Combustion engine but it is only because of associations and nostalgia, if I had never seen one and grew up with electric motors it would seem noisy, over complex, inneficient, smelly and expensive. We need to think long term and globally and enjoy the engine whilst it lasts, and you 20 year olds now will get to seem like a proper dinosaur in 30 years when you are rattling on to 20 year olds then about your Civic type R, like my grandad telling me about his Austin 7, time moves on, it doesnt wait for you, one day you realise you are a bit of an old fart.
We need to remember that this is early days, and that perhaps the development is not about us, im 41 and by this age I have got to the realisation it isnt all about me and what I hold dear, I will pop off at some point between now and what 2040, 2050, 2060 ? I will cease to be, I will be an ex petrolhead but there will be people born today and in the following years that will be driving these cars, this is a long term shift, it is starting, it is fairly obvious, all these massive companies investing in it.
The cars will improve, the battery tech will improve, the charging infrastructure will improve becasue it has to, look at all the investment in hydrocarbon distribution, imagine in 1910 having to ensure you had fuel enough for a journey as there was little in the way of petrol stations.
Go back to 1990, the formative days of the world wide web and mobile phones and see how primitive and slow it all seems, a 9800 Baud modem versus BT Infinity now, my Nokia Cityman versus my HTC, we have 4G on the horizon, 1990 is 22 years ago, it isnt long but the technology has been advancing like wildfire from nothing but a few geeks on dial up to everyone watching TV on a phone, Videos have gone, DVD's are on their way out, I have longed for a way to watch TV over the internet without downloads and now Netflix and lovefilm are here, formative and not perfect but it is so obvious now how it has panned out, it can only improve and I think electric cars will be a long long way advanced in twenty years.
LCD TV's are the norm now, look what a bodge the CRT was, once the technology was there, ten years and the CRT was but a memory, cars are just waiting for breakthroughs in battery and charging technology, the actual motors are already developed, they just need decent suplies of juice. The generation will sort itself out as the oil and stuff will run out so it will be wind, solar, tidal, nuclear hydro etc.
the car manufacturers are now competing to get the first viable Electric Cars to market, we have the first generation in Volt, the Leaf and the Tesla, they have their downsides as we know but the whole world needs this, look how ineviatable the internet seems now.
Electric motors are brilliant, efficient, powerful, clean, quiet, simple etc, much as I love the Internal Combustion engine but it is only because of associations and nostalgia, if I had never seen one and grew up with electric motors it would seem noisy, over complex, inneficient, smelly and expensive. We need to think long term and globally and enjoy the engine whilst it lasts, and you 20 year olds now will get to seem like a proper dinosaur in 30 years when you are rattling on to 20 year olds then about your Civic type R, like my grandad telling me about his Austin 7, time moves on, it doesnt wait for you, one day you realise you are a bit of an old fart.
I have nothing else to add...
J4CKO said:
Good stuff!
I love PH but there are some seriously miserable bds on here LOLFWIW I think you're spot on.
It's very apparent that my kids are already way detached from what I've experienced in my lifetime and I'm not even 40 yet. The prospect of no more petrol saddens me a lot but these kinds of cars are the reality and is something we're going to have to get used to.
Unfortunately we're at the 'brick' phase of the mobile phone but are not too far away from something really quite special. I remember loads of people laughing at early mobile phones but we have to go through the pain before the tech starts to evolve.
Personally I think Mercedes are going the right way about it. Rich people 'will' buy this car so the, "why by one for £300k when you can have a V8" argument is lost when £300k is a drop in the ocean for the target audience.
dublet said:
What's wrong with (most of) you guys? Electric engines are far superior to petrol engines in their power delivery and efficiency. I'd love to have one of these all electric cars and if someone with a spare £300k wants to buy one of these, great. It will mean the rest of us will get better batteries down the line.
I bet you lot stem from the same people who said the petrol engine was rubbish as it was far too noisy and who in their right minds would strap a tank full of explosives to their car? And while we're at it, this whole car thing will never take off, can't even take them across a rough forest unlike your trusty steed.
sound sI bet you lot stem from the same people who said the petrol engine was rubbish as it was far too noisy and who in their right minds would strap a tank full of explosives to their car? And while we're at it, this whole car thing will never take off, can't even take them across a rough forest unlike your trusty steed.
t thou 
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff