RE: Europe's most (and least) reliable used cars

[bertie]

Quat said:

RRS and Disco news no surprise.

We have three RRS in the office and all are regally in for suspension issues. Mine's been in 4 in two years times and my colleague's has been in 6 times in two years. All under warrantee thank fook. Doesn’t stop people buying them though.

Never understood the appeal of the Sport, drives exactly the same as a Discovery (since it is the same) but costs £10k more and is less practical and less roomy, and 2 less seats

The chassis and drivetrain go down the line and it isn't until they put the body on that it becomes Discovery or Sport.

[71tuscan]

P9UNK said:

I think the way it works is that if there are no problems with a Jag or Bentley then it's Indian/German... If there are problems then it's British.

This is not the reason the British motor industry went bust, but this IS the reason why it never got the chance to heal itself.
It's not the first time that some British bloke feels he has to exaggerate 'British unreliablity', while it actually isn't true at all.
Of all the cars I've had, especially the Italian and german had disastrous reliability, while the British were amongst the most reliable.
e.g. my current Daily driver (Freelander 2 Td4) has proved to be completely faultless since I bought it new in 2008. Just fuel, oil and tyres.
TVR Chimaera: same story.

Everybody seems to put 'deutsche grundlichkeit' on some pedestal and make it a divine truth, while they have exactly as much (or more) and exactly the same problems than other cars.
In addititon to that, the Germans seem to make 'keine fehler' when you pronounce the word warranty.
It's my experience they would rather spend 20000€ trying to prove they don't make mistakes, rather than replacing a 200€ part under warranty.

Sad.

In a few years time, VAG, BMW and DaimlerBenz will own the entire world production and we'll all drive exactly the same cars with different badges and price tags.

[P2BS]

This prompted me to look up German TUeV 2012 statistics, due to be published in December. They list the cars with the least & most defects by age as tested in Germany in the headline report, and I guess the December report will contain everything in between (The TUeV carry out inspections every 2 years, unlike the UK MOT system which is annually).

Least defects:
2-3 years old: Toyota Prius, Toyota Auris
4-5 years old: Volkswagen Phaeton, Toyota Prius
6-7 years old: Porsche 996
8-9 years old: Porsche 996
10-11 years old: Porsche 996

Most defects:
2-3 years old: Ford Ka, Dacia Logan
4-5 years old: Ford Ka, Renault Espace, Dacia Logan
6-7 years old: Ford Ka, Fiat Stilo
8-9 years old: Ford Ka, Seat Alhambra
10-11 years old: Ford Ka

Edited by P2BS on Tuesday 25th September 13:18

[dasherdiablo1]

Beefmeister said:

Is that the only photo you could find of that generation E-Class? One that's been 'slammed and dealt with'?

Maybe it hasn't been slammed - it says the major fault was suspension failure.... :O)

[Bladedancer]

Waugh-terfall said:

No.

GTIR has a 2007 E220 CDI Avantgarde, 415,000mi and counting, fast.

How many times injectors, DMF and fuel pump have been changed on it?

[Tankslider]

The way these cars tend to be driven will also affect these figures. Interesting...

[Waugh-terfall]

Bladedancer said:

Waugh-terfall said:

No.

GTIR has a 2007 E220 CDI Avantgarde, 415,000mi and counting, fast.

How many times injectors, DMF and fuel pump have been changed on it?

I don't think he's had any real issues with it.

[Contigo]

Warranty Direct!?!?! I'd not put any credibility in their stats if past experience is anything to go by.

[blindswelledrat]

P2BS said:

This prompted me to look up German TUeV 2012 statistics, due to be published in December. They list the cars with the least & most defects by age as tested in Germany in the headline report, and I guess the December report will contain everything in between (The TUeV carry out inspections every 2 years, unlike the UK MOT system which is annually).

Least defects:
2-3 years old: Toyota Prius, Toyota Auris
4-5 years old: Volkswagen Phaeton, Toyota Prius
6-7 years old: Porsche 996
8-9 years old: Porsche 996
10-11 years old: Porsche 996

Most defects:
2-3 years old: Ford Ka, Dacia Logan
4-5 years old: Ford Ka, Renault Espace, Dacia Logan
6-7 years old: Ford Ka, Fiat Stilo
8-9 years old: Ford Ka, Seat Alhambra
10-11 years old: Ford Ka


]

Very interesting (if true)
Call me cynical but a German test showing suprise German winners in 4 of 5 group tests makes me a touch suspicious

[chunkymonkey71]

blindswelledrat said:

P2BS said:

This prompted me to look up German TUeV 2012 statistics, due to be published in December. They list the cars with the least & most defects by age as tested in Germany in the headline report, and I guess the December report will contain everything in between (The TUeV carry out inspections every 2 years, unlike the UK MOT system which is annually).

Least defects:
2-3 years old: Toyota Prius, Toyota Auris
4-5 years old: Volkswagen Phaeton, Toyota Prius
6-7 years old: Porsche 996
8-9 years old: Porsche 996
10-11 years old: Porsche 996

Most defects:
2-3 years old: Ford Ka, Dacia Logan
4-5 years old: Ford Ka, Renault Espace, Dacia Logan
6-7 years old: Ford Ka, Fiat Stilo
8-9 years old: Ford Ka, Seat Alhambra
10-11 years old: Ford Ka


]

Very interesting (if true)
Call me cynical but a German test showing suprise German winners in 4 of 5 group tests makes me a touch suspicious

They have always been pretty good at propaganda...!

[billzeebub]

My ex-boss owned an 09 Mercedes 500SL..it was always at the dealers getting something fixed..literally every couple of weeks! I remember him telling me once that the dealer charged him nearly a grand to replace a faulty headlight!

..knowing the reputation LR rightly or wrongly have I am relieved to say that non of my numerous LR vehicles have ever let me down. From an early 90 s Discovery to my current RR TDV8

Edited by billzeebub on Tuesday 25th September 15:43

[Graham]

bertie said:

Never understood the appeal of the Sport, drives exactly the same as a Discovery (since it is the same) but costs £10k more and is less practical and less roomy, and 2 less seats

maybe because the disco 3/4 fell out of the ugly tree hitting every branch on the way down and then got a kicking by it siblings for being ugly... and the RRS by comparison looks great...

and thats from a serial land rover/range rover owner... whose disco 2 facelift is heading into its 2nd decade with one botched recall, rear wheel oil seal and snapped manifold stud to its name.. not bad for a motor thats pushing out and extra 60bhp from stock spent half itslife towing and driven by me since new !!!

[bertie]

Graham said:

bertie said:

Never understood the appeal of the Sport, drives exactly the same as a Discovery (since it is the same) but costs £10k more and is less practical and less roomy, and 2 less seats

maybe because the disco 3/4 fell out of the ugly tree hitting every branch on the way down and then got a kicking by it siblings for being ugly... and the RRS by comparison looks great...

To me the Disco has a functional beauty and honesty to it and the RRS looks like some sort of pseudo designer, footballers wife carriage, adorned with as mich bling as they could stick to it.

Each to their own I guess, they both drive poorly and are far too heavy in my opinion so neither do it for me.

[zebedee]

bertie said:

To me the Disco has a functional beauty and honesty to it and the RRS looks like some sort of pseudo designer, footballers wife carriage, adorned with as mich bling as they could stick to it.

Each to their own I guess, they both drive poorly and are far too heavy in my opinion so neither do it for me.

And the RR Sport is probably the worst driven car on the road in terms of discipline and courtesy (i.e. you rarely get any out of them, especially black ones with black tinted windows, I stay well out of their way!) It is a bit like the Orion 1600 Ghia of its day, which was a car when I was learning to drive that always seemed to be being driven very badly!

[Agent Orange]

chunkymonkey71 said:

They have always been pretty good at propaganda...!

[peterbredde]

Ian_C said:

You have got to be kidding me? Don't get me wrong I love French cars but I find these three being in the top ten simply impossible to believe

+1. I sold a 4 year old 207 in Feb of this year. I can't recall all of the faults, but the major ones at point of sale were - no central locking, one door that wouldn't open at all, CD player that shat out CDs whenever it felt like it and it was the only auto I ever owned that stalled (again, when it felt like it). I actually traded it in, as I couldn't bring myself to go through these issues with anyone who turned up to see it and end up taking it anally on price.

My mates scenic will open and close its own windows every now and again on a whim, and I can't imagine the C3 is actually any better.

Edited by peterbredde on Tuesday 25th September 17:42

[crancko]

The german ADAC puts out statistics on which cars breaks down most often. It's based on their roadservice and quite thorough. Last one was the 2011 one:

http://www.adac.de/sp/presse/meldungen/technik_umw...

Statistics in a nice graphic: http://www.adac.de/sp/presse/_mmm/jpg/Pannenstatis...

For ze german haters: Sorry, it seems this statistic also shows they are doing ok... :-)

[carmental]

100th comment!!!!

[Bladedancer]

Waugh-terfall said:

Bladedancer said:

Waugh-terfall said:

No.

GTIR has a 2007 E220 CDI Avantgarde, 415,000mi and counting, fast.

How many times injectors, DMF and fuel pump have been changed on it?

I don't think he's had any real issues with it.

That's as lucky as it gets.
A common rail diesel without any problems over 150k mark.
Many have trouble reaching 100k without one of the usual suspects going bang.

[Merle]

In the United States all five bottom cars would be VW and Audi.