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zebedee

4,297 posts

164 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
LuS1fer said:
I'm no avid follower of motorsport but wasn't partcularly aware of that and on that basis, I reckon about 99.9% of customers wouldn't know or don't give a fig. I have to question what benefit motorpsort involvement gives car manufacturers these days. It seems to work for sponsors like Red Bull but not so much the manufacturers. In the 70's Grandstand and world of Sport had a lot of rallying so ford got massive exposure but I don't think Le mans has the same cachet or following.

I think BMW got it right in creating M Cars. The Rover Vitesse was as near as BL ever got (swiftly diluted in the 800 Vitesse) and Audi seem to have hit the nail with the RS and R8. Jag seem to have missed it with their "add an R or RS on the end" approach.
Jag's win is famous.

LuS1fer

31,743 posts

131 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
zebedee said:
Jag's win is famous.
Not to me or most of the population it isn't.

DJRC

22,121 posts

122 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
LuS1fer said:
zebedee said:
Jag's win is famous.
Not to me or most of the population it isn't.
Which wins?

The 50s wins were very famous, everybody bit as much as the GP racing largely because it was the same drivers. Jaguar used that to build a very successful export drive in the 50s and into the 60s.

The Group C win and the journey upto to it was equally as famous in the 80s and the mythology into the 90s. Indeed its pretty much the foundation of the rebirth of Le Mans in British motorsport culture. The trouble is its 20-25yrs ago now, but if you put a Silk Cut Jag on display though, everybody will tell you what it is. Ford let Jaguar abandon its heritage and give it to Audi. Everybody who is now driving an Audi from their increase in sales over the last 15yrs should be in Jags. *Thats* how much of the market Jag have lost.

Jag's first marketing priority should be Le Mans victory.

DonkeyApple

17,197 posts

55 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
DJRC said:
Which wins?

The 50s wins were very famous, everybody bit as much as the GP racing largely because it was the same drivers. Jaguar used that to build a very successful export drive in the 50s and into the 60s.

The Group C win and the journey upto to it was equally as famous in the 80s and the mythology into the 90s. Indeed its pretty much the foundation of the rebirth of Le Mans in British motorsport culture. The trouble is its 20-25yrs ago now, but if you put a Silk Cut Jag on display though, everybody will tell you what it is. Ford let Jaguar abandon its heritage and give it to Audi. Everybody who is now driving an Audi from their increase in sales over the last 15yrs should be in Jags. *Thats* how much of the market Jag have lost.

Jag's first marketing priority should be Le Mans victory.
And remember the lessons of being branded alsorans in F1.

Do it properly. Do it well. Win. Or don't bother.

Initial core market for small Jags will be wives and confirmed bachelors but race wins in the right sport will be vital if they intend to increase their share of the conventional younger male sector. Along side suitable marketing orientation and sponsorships.

FWDRacer

3,248 posts

110 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
DJRC said:
Jag's first marketing priority should be Le Mans victory.
yes Absolutely bang on.
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zebedee

4,297 posts

164 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
LuS1fer said:
zebedee said:
Jag's win is famous.
Not to me or most of the population it isn't.
They all are to British car enthusiasts, so maybe you aren't a British car enthusiast.

Edited to add you live in Wales and have been a Pistonheads member for 9 years so I am staggered that you didn't know about their wins. I think a lot of the population that would be buying a Jag would know something about the marque and that is a big part of the marque. I admit that it is a relatively long time ago now, but reviving Jag's racing heritage would be a lot easier than reviving Bentley's, and their Le Mans win probably did wonders for the marque.

Edited further to add and Bentley are re-reviving their racing heritage already, so hopefully Jaguar won't be far behind (I am ignoring the Gentillozi XK debacle as it was just so bad).

Edited by zebedee on Wednesday 3rd October 10:10


Edited by zebedee on Wednesday 3rd October 10:11

CDP

5,039 posts

140 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
FWDRacer said:
DJRC said:
Jag's first marketing priority should be Le Mans victory.
yes Absolutely bang on.
No, I'd say it should be the lesser tapped export markets.

LuS1fer

31,743 posts

131 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
zebedee said:
They all are to British car enthusiasts, so maybe you aren't a British car enthusiast.

Edited to add you live in Wales and have been a Pistonheads member for 9 years so I am staggered that you didn't know about their wins. I think a lot of the population that would be buying a Jag would know something about the marque and that is a big part of the marque. I admit that it is a relatively long time ago now, but reviving Jag's racing heritage would be a lot easier than reviving Bentley's, and their Le Mans win probably did wonders for the marque.
I may have been faintly aware of it at the time but if so, it is long forgotten. I recall the 50s Le Mans win when cars were interesting and bore some relation to road cars.

Unfortunately, the romance with Le Mans seems to me to be very much confined to PH and people who go there. Nobody else I know, even those interested in cars, pay any attention to it. In the 50s it has a real PH factor but now it's just a boring endurance race. Not even Corvettes can get me interested. I fear the same will apply to most Jag buyers.

"Can I interest you in a Jaguar?"
"No"
"They've recently won Le Mans in a car totally unrelated to this car, you know"
"Oh that's the clincher then".

"Can I interest you in a Citroen C4?"
"No"
"They won lots of Paris-Dakar rallies"
"So?"

I'm not being obtuse nor trolling but I just don't see it makes any difference these days. I doubt BMW achieve their sales on the back of motorsport either.

J-P

2,833 posts

92 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
To be honest most manufacturers are rubbish at this sort of thing. Ferrari and Porsche have done it well for years and AMG have obviously learnt a thing or two from their Stuttgart partners but others are totally shocking! Look at Citroen, world number 1 rally champions for ages and not a single car that would remotely interest an enthusiast until about 2010!

cmoose

25,390 posts

115 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
I would agree. I don't think the 43 year-old-women who'll probably end up buying this thing are likely to be swayed by Le Mans success!

If the the F-Type does well, I see it as succeeding where the original Porsche Boxster did. Lest we forget, when that came out in 96/7, there were long waiting lists and people paying well over list. And list with a few extras was £40k, which is £60k in today's money.

Same goes for track prowess, the weight and the gearbox. Personally, I'd love to see a manual version weighing 200kg less. But I doubt any of those things will have an impact on sales. If it is considered to look very sexy, if it sound good and is easy and flattering to drive and is generally seen as something fresh and new and desirable, they'll shift a few!

J-P

2,833 posts

92 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
cmoose said:
I would agree. I don't think the 43 year-old-women who'll probably end up buying this thing are likely to be swayed by Le Mans success!

If the the F-Type does well, I see it as succeeding where the original Porsche Boxster did. Lest we forget, when that came out in 96/7, there were long waiting lists and people paying well over list. And list with a few extras was £40k, which is £60k in today's money.

Same goes for track prowess, the weight and the gearbox. Personally, I'd love to see a manual version weighing 200kg less. But I doubt any of those things will have an impact on sales. If it is considered to look very sexy, if it sound good and is easy and flattering to drive and is generally seen as something fresh and new and desirable, they'll shift a few!
They'll definitely shift a few - it looks great and sounds awesome!

Twincam16

27,646 posts

144 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
LuS1fer said:
I may have been faintly aware of it at the time but if so, it is long forgotten. I recall the 50s Le Mans win when cars were interesting and bore some relation to road cars.

Unfortunately, the romance with Le Mans seems to me to be very much confined to PH and people who go there. Nobody else I know, even those interested in cars, pay any attention to it. In the 50s it has a real PH factor but now it's just a boring endurance race. Not even Corvettes can get me interested. I fear the same will apply to most Jag buyers.

"Can I interest you in a Jaguar?"
"No"
"They've recently won Le Mans in a car totally unrelated to this car, you know"
"Oh that's the clincher then".

"Can I interest you in a Citroen C4?"
"No"
"They won lots of Paris-Dakar rallies"
"So?"

I'm not being obtuse nor trolling but I just don't see it makes any difference these days. I doubt BMW achieve their sales on the back of motorsport either.
Oh come on - you know it's not as heavy-handed as that.

Take this bestseller, for example:



Costs a bit more than the standard Fabia, and logic suggests that the average Fabia customer won't be interested in a beefier-looking exhaust, rally car design cues and cool-looking badges. 'What's the point', 'it'll never sell', 'who'd want that?' etc.

But if someone goes into a showroom and sees one, costing a few quid more than a standard model, next to a big picture of this:



And it'll make them feel a lot better about buying the Montecarlo edition rather than the standard one, because it's cool.

Now, put that on a bigger scale. You fancy a sports car and it's either a BMW Z4M Coupe, a Porsche 911, or this.

BMW has images of this in its showroom:



Porsche has this:



And Jaguar will have some lifestyle tosh with some dreamily 'aspirational' people posing with it, that you'll be expected to want to be.

Which do you think will sell better? I suspect the former, because motor sport has sold cars since the dawn of time. 'Win on Sunday, sell on Monday' - forget it at your peril, especially when a car is meant to be sporty.

Actually, going back to that Skoda, it adds legitimacy to the higher price. It makes buyers think 'well, clearly motorsport development has gone into that car, so I'm paying for the latest technology'. They'll pay for that more readily than they'll pay for some tarted-up racer-wannabe top-of-the-range econobox with a big lairy spoiler and stripes, because if it's still an econobox at heart, the whole point of it will be to buy it as cheaply as possible. Entering motor sport and doing well means people will think (and sometimes they'll be right) that your product is better-engineered than rivals who don't.

LuS1fer

31,743 posts

131 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
I couldn't diagree more. the Skoda looks nothing like the showroom car and has zero bearing on my desire for a "hot hatch". It was different in the 60s when the performance car was evolving but nowadays, we've pretty much reached a plateau.

The Z4 would have no influence at all to most women buying one because they want a wafty convertible with an electric roof. that image might well alienate them into thinking it's a car designed with a really hard ride suitable for tracks rather than the road.

Same with the 911. If I want a car to show I've "arrived", all I need is a 911 and odds on it won't be a GT3 or a GT2, it'll be a standard 911 without any garish motorsport stickers that went deeply out of fashion a long time ago.

The link these days is more a retro link with "racing stripes" but that's because they macho up otherwise less interesting designs or hark back to a previous era.

On your logic, the Megane R26R would have sold on the back of motorpsort hardcore origins and it didn't.

All the performance derivatives I have ever bought have been based on simple road tests proving they were great ROAD cars. 99% of Ford Escort Mk 1 and IIs were bought for practical economy reasons and not because they were rallied. they made a small number of RS1600s to cater for those people and the RS1800 was very much special order leaving the visually different RS2000 to appeal to the buyers.

Winning races doesn't hurt of course. It boosts the reputation of the manufacturer but if they already have a successful history, undermining it by racing against far more competent competition in what is really a rich man's self-indulgent sport is not attractive and for me, I would be wondering how much cheaper the car could be if they stopped splashing money out.

There is plainly truth in this from the number of manufacturesrs who have given up motorsport as an expensive frill with little relevance to sales.

zebedee

4,297 posts

164 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
LuS1fer said:
I couldn't diagree more. the Skoda looks nothing like the showroom car and has zero bearing on my desire for a "hot hatch". It was different in the 60s when the performance car was evolving but nowadays, we've pretty much reached a plateau.

The Z4 would have no influence at all to most women buying one because they want a wafty convertible with an electric roof. that image might well alienate them into thinking it's a car designed with a really hard ride suitable for tracks rather than the road.

Same with the 911. If I want a car to show I've "arrived", all I need is a 911 and odds on it won't be a GT3 or a GT2, it'll be a standard 911 without any garish motorsport stickers that went deeply out of fashion a long time ago.

The link these days is more a retro link with "racing stripes" but that's because they macho up otherwise less interesting designs or hark back to a previous era.

On your logic, the Megane R26R would have sold on the back of motorpsort hardcore origins and it didn't.

All the performance derivatives I have ever bought have been based on simple road tests proving they were great ROAD cars. 99% of Ford Escort Mk 1 and IIs were bought for practical economy reasons and not because they were rallied. they made a small number of RS1600s to cater for those people and the RS1800 was very much special order leaving the visually different RS2000 to appeal to the buyers.

Winning races doesn't hurt of course. It boosts the reputation of the manufacturer but if they already have a successful history, undermining it by racing against far more competent competition in what is really a rich man's self-indulgent sport is not attractive and for me, I would be wondering how much cheaper the car could be if they stopped splashing money out.

There is plainly truth in this from the number of manufacturesrs who have given up motorsport as an expensive frill with little relevance to sales.
Thank god that there are people in car companies that don't think like you. Le Mans boring? Yeah, right!

cmoose

25,390 posts

115 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Would have to agree that the motorsport connection seems very tenuous these days.

My mum buys M Sport BMWs. She doesn't actually want a sport car. She probably hasn't heard of Le Mans and definitely hasn't a clue who competes in it. But she wants M Sport.

I can't claim to understand exactly how this plays out and this is hardly peer reviewed analysis I am providing. But my feeling is that buyers like my mum make up a much larger part of the customer base for vaguely premiumish branded cars than the guy steeped in Le Mans history.

There may be some very intangible long term halo effect of motorsport participation, but I imagine it's harder to justify now than ever. F1's may be worth a crack as the media coverage is at saturation levels and every mouthbreather with a bit of money will know Hamilton will be driving a Merc next year, innit. Etc.

LuS1fer

31,743 posts

131 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
zebedee said:
Thank god that there are people in car companies that don't think like you. Le Mans boring? Yeah, right!
So is F1 and golf... to me.
Finding Le Mans boring and road cars interesting is not an unusual combination. Don't get me wrong, if I was placed at the cicuit, i would watch it but not with any great compulsion as 24 hours is a long time.
Neither would I not buy a sporty car because the manufacturer had not competed in Le Mans.

I couldn't even tell you who won the Wales Rally last year and I went to watch the finish with my son. I recall seeing a load of hatches that all seemed to be Fiestas and possibly hatches from other manufacturers too but none of it would affect my choice of road car because they are IRRELEVANT unless they are standard road cars and I fancied doing some rallying. Am I wrong?

tony wright

348 posts

136 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Sorry to digress from the way the thread was going, but what do people think are the essential must have options for the F Type?

Guvernator

3,424 posts

51 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
tony wright said:
Sorry to digress from the way the thread was going, but what do people think are the essential must have options for the F Type?
200kgs less weight and a manual gearbox it seems like biggrin

LuS1fer

31,743 posts

131 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
L'Oreal Perma-Blonde hair dye? wink (Male or female...)

zebedee

4,297 posts

164 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
LuS1fer said:
L'Oreal Perma-Blonde hair dye? wink (Male or female...)
why? This car appears 'proper' to me.
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