RE: PH blog: in defence of the Clio RS
Discussion
charltjr said:
Cars got heavier because people wanted better crash protection and kit, now emissions regs are forcing new approaches and weight is starting to come back down on new versions of cars. Clio and everything on the new Golf platform are two examples.
Thank Christ.
Emissions regs are also responsible for a lot of the weight, e.g. exhaust gas recirculation, catalytic converters, particle filters, tank leakage monitors etc. Emissions regs used to only be concerned about particles and noxious gases and the strangling of engines simply reduced power and increased CO2. Now it's all going the other way!Thank Christ.
It looks a f
king mess though I am sorry
And the gearbox why oh why what a stupid move
The Engine is less of a worry it will probably be okay not as nice as the n/a lump in the 200 but will do the job and sure it will handle nicely.
But it looks a lot worse, will be more expensive and wont be as fun to drive with that gearbox and to be honest can't see it weighing a lot less as the flappy gearbox and turbo engine can't be that light...
king mess though I am sorryAnd the gearbox why oh why what a stupid move
The Engine is less of a worry it will probably be okay not as nice as the n/a lump in the 200 but will do the job and sure it will handle nicely.
But it looks a lot worse, will be more expensive and wont be as fun to drive with that gearbox and to be honest can't see it weighing a lot less as the flappy gearbox and turbo engine can't be that light...
When the Clio 200 was revealed many people on here hated the look of the front. Yet those people now rave about the car, if not through ownership then through press reviews.
Yes, this is different, but i've no doubt the car will still get great reviews. It might have grown up a little bit, but it had to evolve.
I cant wait for the press reviews. And i'm sure the looks will grow on me.
Yes, this is different, but i've no doubt the car will still get great reviews. It might have grown up a little bit, but it had to evolve.
I cant wait for the press reviews. And i'm sure the looks will grow on me.
My take on the noise generator thing: personally, what makes me tick with cars is the mechanical interaction between man and machine. A cliché maybe, but I think most enthusiasts (reads: car geeks) appreciate the mechanicals of a car, e.g. a rifle-bolt-esc gear change, or a well-tuned nasp engine screaming at 7k, the noise of a wastegate on a gearchange (I could go on, but I'm getting a little too excited here 
), you get the idea.
The thought of something so fundamental to the enjoyment of a car being synthesised just seems plain wrong to me. Maybe as an engineer I'm too much of a meglo-geek to get it, but it all seems a bit too computer gamey to me!
Exhaust note silenced further to meet some stupid euro regs = more weight
More soundproofing to make the car quieter inside, and therefore 'better' = more weight
Oh dear, we can't hear the exhaust note in our latest sports lets fit one of those synthesized exhaust thingies = more weight
No wonder the thing weighs a 100kgs more than the new one!
At least in the future we can just have our synthesizer 'remapped' instead of shelling out for a new exhaust
Hopefully RS haven't lost their edge though and it will still be a good drive...
), you get the idea.The thought of something so fundamental to the enjoyment of a car being synthesised just seems plain wrong to me. Maybe as an engineer I'm too much of a meglo-geek to get it, but it all seems a bit too computer gamey to me!
Exhaust note silenced further to meet some stupid euro regs = more weight
More soundproofing to make the car quieter inside, and therefore 'better' = more weight
Oh dear, we can't hear the exhaust note in our latest sports lets fit one of those synthesized exhaust thingies = more weight
No wonder the thing weighs a 100kgs more than the new one!
At least in the future we can just have our synthesizer 'remapped' instead of shelling out for a new exhaust
Hopefully RS haven't lost their edge though and it will still be a good drive...
Everyone is forgetting that even for the sort of car that the RenaultSport Clios are, the majority of buyers aren't really into the 'driving experience' beyond being concerned if their nice new car has all the nice new things - semi-auto 'box, ipod connectivity, self-levelling exfoliator widgets, etc - that nice new cars should have. They'll be happy with this. Unfortunately in every highly commercialised and commidified market, the minority interest some of us have toward esoteric things like under and oversteer, the sensation of heel-and-toeing as you snick into second before an uphill lefthander, and so on is rarely properly catered for.
That doesn't excuse them making it look awful, but I suppose you could say the same for many cars from many eras. Also it doesn't excuse them from what seems like a bizarre decision to not have a manual-gearbox three door on offer as an option - I can't see how it would cost so much as to make it worthless.
As I said in the other thread yesterday, I suspect in a year or two a 'special edition' will be released with three doors, a manual gearbox and less faffing with sound effects - for a tidy premium, of course.
That doesn't excuse them making it look awful, but I suppose you could say the same for many cars from many eras. Also it doesn't excuse them from what seems like a bizarre decision to not have a manual-gearbox three door on offer as an option - I can't see how it would cost so much as to make it worthless.
As I said in the other thread yesterday, I suspect in a year or two a 'special edition' will be released with three doors, a manual gearbox and less faffing with sound effects - for a tidy premium, of course.
The main thing that bothers me is the 5 doors and gearbox..
I run a 197 Cup. Bought around 5 months ago and plan to keep for another 5 years at least. (will become a second car next year when I purchase another BMW with at least 3 litres :-D) I bought it as it's nice and simple and when things go wrong they're easy and cheap to fix, parts are plentiful on ebay etc..
DSG scares me, i certainly wouldn't fancy one 10 years old with 100k. If I was buying new i'd probably tick the box, though.
5 doors is just not right. 197 has flared front and rear arches and looks mega in 3 doors. That's just a normal Clio with different bumpers. The metal/plasticwork is no different :-(
I run a 197 Cup. Bought around 5 months ago and plan to keep for another 5 years at least. (will become a second car next year when I purchase another BMW with at least 3 litres :-D) I bought it as it's nice and simple and when things go wrong they're easy and cheap to fix, parts are plentiful on ebay etc..
DSG scares me, i certainly wouldn't fancy one 10 years old with 100k. If I was buying new i'd probably tick the box, though.
5 doors is just not right. 197 has flared front and rear arches and looks mega in 3 doors. That's just a normal Clio with different bumpers. The metal/plasticwork is no different :-(
I don't know where to start on this car. I suppose the no manual option would be a good place.
As a driving enthusiast I love to be part of the process of driving, the more involvement I can get the better. But, with the times moving on it seems that we'll all eventually be in semi automatics. I suppose I just have to accept that.
The looks of it isn't that bad for me. It’s no looker by any means, but I think it’s a look that could grow on me as my eyes adjust. The back is almost pretty. But the fact the Clio will only come as a 4 door makes matters worse. Small hot hatches shouldn't come in 4 door. It's just bad...in fact I’m sure it’s in the bible somewhere.
I hate not having the choice and the control. I want to be able to choose manual and have the 3rd pedal.
I thought Renault of all car makers wouldn't have gone down this route, and I when i read leaks on the details of the car I didn't dare believe they were true.
This new Clio may be great for all I know, but giving the options I don't have to choose from, I don't really care. Bring on the Fiesta ST and long live the Corsa VXR.
This for me is a sad day for small hot hatches.
As a driving enthusiast I love to be part of the process of driving, the more involvement I can get the better. But, with the times moving on it seems that we'll all eventually be in semi automatics. I suppose I just have to accept that.
The looks of it isn't that bad for me. It’s no looker by any means, but I think it’s a look that could grow on me as my eyes adjust. The back is almost pretty. But the fact the Clio will only come as a 4 door makes matters worse. Small hot hatches shouldn't come in 4 door. It's just bad...in fact I’m sure it’s in the bible somewhere.
I hate not having the choice and the control. I want to be able to choose manual and have the 3rd pedal.
I thought Renault of all car makers wouldn't have gone down this route, and I when i read leaks on the details of the car I didn't dare believe they were true.
This new Clio may be great for all I know, but giving the options I don't have to choose from, I don't really care. Bring on the Fiesta ST and long live the Corsa VXR.
This for me is a sad day for small hot hatches.
This was going to be on my list.. I can even handle the 5 doors. But after a year of a Mk5 Polo GTI I will never have a sporting car with DSG again. I swapped it for an R56 MCS and its like night and day. With a stick you're at one with the car, harmonised if you will. (Too many superlatives?) Paddles, auto just adds a layer of separation. Non!
Now.. I will be rolling up to Peugeot in a few months and asking for a go in the 208 GTI. 200hp MCS engine? Whats not to like.. ah yes, that awful dead beam suspension that Peugeot cant get right...
Now.. I will be rolling up to Peugeot in a few months and asking for a go in the 208 GTI. 200hp MCS engine? Whats not to like.. ah yes, that awful dead beam suspension that Peugeot cant get right...
Quite fancy one of these. I do think the 'cooking' version looks a little more coherent than the RS. I saw a yellow non-RS one around the SW outskirts of Paris last month (pre-production I guess) and it looked pretty good. Only jarring bit to my mind was the Megan hatch-esque rear haunch which is a little too bold for me.
The DRL whiskers were eye-searingly bright.
Saw a Zoe the same day too. Not many vents on that one.
The DRL whiskers were eye-searingly bright.
Saw a Zoe the same day too. Not many vents on that one.
Edited by Insanity Magnet on Friday 28th September 13:59
The engine and gearbox is liveable with and I think the 5 door would be less noticeable in a darker paint scheme. The hi-fi engine sound could also be quite quirky but its the design thats the worst part. That front end isn't good.
That said I still want to see what it drives like before totally disregarding it.
That said I still want to see what it drives like before totally disregarding it.
The whole R-sound thing that sounds plain stupid isn't actually as bad as first thought. It's an app on the computer that can give synthetic sounds, not a replacement for engine noise. You can switch it off it looks like so you can get a true engine noise. Thank God.
Now it's just the weedy looking brakes and lack of butchness over the standard that needs sorting
Now it's just the weedy looking brakes and lack of butchness over the standard that needs sorting
Starting to grow on me already having seen some larger pics...
http://www.netcarshow.com/renault/2013-clio_rs_200...
http://www.netcarshow.com/renault/2013-clio_rs_200...
Pfft, poor defence. A huge part of the brilliance of the RS Clios was the power delivery, we (the people who paid good money for them) liked the revs, there's a reason we didn't buy a Corsa VXR instead. That's diluted.
I don't hugely care anyway, I'm stuck in diesel estates for the foreseeable but it does sadden me a bit that I'll probably never own another N/A petrol engine, stinking turbos are here to stay.
I don't hugely care anyway, I'm stuck in diesel estates for the foreseeable but it does sadden me a bit that I'll probably never own another N/A petrol engine, stinking turbos are here to stay.
The man from Renault UK said:
Just to be clear for those of you concerned by R-Sound - the engineers have spent a lot of time making sure the car sounds great via 'natural' methods. R-Sound is simply an app that allows you to personalise the car - it's just a bit of fun, not a sound symposer in place of the real thing...
So it's not the same as in the M5.Robb F said:
PumpkinSteve said:
The Polo GTI also has the engine note speaker.
That doesn't make it ok :PMy 197 gearbox failure will be enough to drive me from the brand anyway, but it's the sheer level of change proposed that's hard to swallow. We all knew they'd go turbo. I don't see it asanything to do with weight - more that it's to exploit the stupid emissions regs we now have in place.
Sadly this also leads you to the transmission - many of these 'boxes are better able to get round the emissions regs than their manual equivalents due to the way the tests are done. So I can maybe understand that as well.
But 5drs is where it starts to stretch. I know people mention competing with others such as the Fabia and Polo, but the point remains that the Clio has never had 5drs on the hot models and it didn't materially harm sales. Add to that the poor sales of the 5dr Megane II RS (a car much more suited to 5drs imo) and you've even greater reason to question the decision.
No bespoke bodywork? A big criticism of the mk2 RS Clios was that from most angles they looked just like the lesser models, which was a retrograde step after the bespoke metalwork of the mk1 1.8 16v and Williams. Then Renault announced the Clio 3 would see a return to that approach and the car looks brilliant as a result. The 197 (they ruined the facelift imo) remains, in my eyes, the best looking modern hot hatch for a long time. So why the return to standard metal?
And then there's the final nail in the coffin - fake engine noise pumped into the cabin. Dear me, that is truly a sad reflection of our times
Hit the nail on the head.
It will drive brilliantly and that will mean that 5 doors, horrible (imo) looks and turbo engine won't matter.
However it will not make up for the lack of a manual, that is the only bit I care about and no test drive or motor journalists review will change the fact that a small hot hatch should have a manual.
It will drive brilliantly and that will mean that 5 doors, horrible (imo) looks and turbo engine won't matter.
However it will not make up for the lack of a manual, that is the only bit I care about and no test drive or motor journalists review will change the fact that a small hot hatch should have a manual.
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