Gas-guzzling sportscars to receive purchase tax up to £23K
Discussion
phil121081 said:
The simple and most straight forward solution is to dump VED all together, calculate how much the govt. generate in revenue from the current system, run a few calcs on miles covered and average mpg and add 10p a litre to the cost of fuel (or whatever that figure turns out to be). That way, if you do 1k miles a year in a One-77 you pay your FAIR share, if you do 50k miles in an ecoboost POS you pay your FAIR share. This will also bring down the annual CO2 emmissions as people will drive less as it costs more, or buy more efficient cars.
The govt. adjust the tax on the fuel annually to ensure they get what they need to top up the coffers, although dare I say it, the savings on the staff bill at the DVLA would mount up to a fair bit too. The few dealings I have had with them, plenty of scope to get rid of some dead wood anyway.
Win/Win and a fair situation, pay as you go motoring.
The last time I checked, my car ran perfectly well with no tax disc in the window, however when it ran out of fuel, it was a bugger to start. Think of all the man hours saved from the police not checking cars for tax, the reminder letters in the post, the queues at the post office desk at the end of every month when everyone is taxing their car. It's so easy, everyone has to put fuel in the car anyway, so just bolt it onto that, you cannot avoid it. Simples.
Same as a few of us others have said above!The govt. adjust the tax on the fuel annually to ensure they get what they need to top up the coffers, although dare I say it, the savings on the staff bill at the DVLA would mount up to a fair bit too. The few dealings I have had with them, plenty of scope to get rid of some dead wood anyway.
Win/Win and a fair situation, pay as you go motoring.
The last time I checked, my car ran perfectly well with no tax disc in the window, however when it ran out of fuel, it was a bugger to start. Think of all the man hours saved from the police not checking cars for tax, the reminder letters in the post, the queues at the post office desk at the end of every month when everyone is taxing their car. It's so easy, everyone has to put fuel in the car anyway, so just bolt it onto that, you cannot avoid it. Simples.
I cant help feel as someone else mentioned the only reason it hasnt happened is lose of jobs in Swansea.
I would also imagine, apart the absolute ved dodgers, its a lot easier for some motorists to pay as you go rather than finding "x" every 6 months or a year in a lump sump.
Just done some searching!
Lost revenue from ved evasion (estimated obviously) £46 million in 2011 to 2012, although an unknown figure will be recovered through back tax and fines.
Its is estimated 2011 - 2012 ved duty will be £5.9 billion.
Revenue gained from fuel (same period) £26.9 billion
Maths isnt my speciality, but duty at roughly £.50 per litre, so thats give or take 13.5 billion litres of fuel.
So without forecasting the savings from no ved department, to achieve £5.9 billion in ved revenue im coming out at .45p a litre extra. Minus the lost revenue, savings on ved department, maybe .20p a litre, i would go for that for sure!
I cannot understand why they don't tax fuel, as others have suggested. I guess the only problem is electric vehicles - as they'd be permanently tax free, as you cannot tell what electricity is going into which vehicle.
Currently the tax regime forces my family to have some totally unsuitable vehicles:
My daily runabout is a diesel - spewing out carcinogenic fumes at an average speed of 8mph in densely populated areas. But I don't pay much road tax!
I had to sell my old more sporty car, as it just sat in a garage most of the year, and I had to pay a fortune in tax for the odd weekend blast.
My wife hardly needs to drive, as she can walk everywhere, including walking the children to school. But she needs a car to go visit her family over 200 miles away (and not on a mainline railway). So what she needs is a big, safe estate car for the infrequent motorway run. But even though it would sit almost unused for weeks at a time, it would still be taxed at a crazy rate. So instead she has a low tax, designed for the city, supermini - that spends 90% of its time overloaded and overworked on the motorway.
Currently the tax regime forces my family to have some totally unsuitable vehicles:
My daily runabout is a diesel - spewing out carcinogenic fumes at an average speed of 8mph in densely populated areas. But I don't pay much road tax!
I had to sell my old more sporty car, as it just sat in a garage most of the year, and I had to pay a fortune in tax for the odd weekend blast.
My wife hardly needs to drive, as she can walk everywhere, including walking the children to school. But she needs a car to go visit her family over 200 miles away (and not on a mainline railway). So what she needs is a big, safe estate car for the infrequent motorway run. But even though it would sit almost unused for weeks at a time, it would still be taxed at a crazy rate. So instead she has a low tax, designed for the city, supermini - that spends 90% of its time overloaded and overworked on the motorway.
[quote=Dazed & Confused]I cannot understand why they don't tax fuel, as others have suggested. I guess the only problem is electric vehicles - as they'd be permanently tax free, as you cannot tell what electricity is going into which vehicle.
[/quote]
You can if you have smartmeters and a specific socket for the car and you make it illegal to fill your car with "red" electricity like it's illegal to fill it with red diesel. I don't actually see why electricity (or oil) for domestic use should be taxed more highly than for road use in the first place, mind.
[/quote]
You can if you have smartmeters and a specific socket for the car and you make it illegal to fill your car with "red" electricity like it's illegal to fill it with red diesel. I don't actually see why electricity (or oil) for domestic use should be taxed more highly than for road use in the first place, mind.
GavinPearson said:
This has made me livid......
Telegraph link
Why does the UK Government feel the need to tax people even more? The road fund license is already skewed to penalise 'thirsty' cars, which are already penalised because the bulk of fuel cost is tax, and the more fuel you buy the more you pay in tax. The only result is going to be Britain's luxury car industry losing sales - in turn making them volume uncompetitive and therefore shedding jobs.
Why has it made you livid? Telegraph link
Why does the UK Government feel the need to tax people even more? The road fund license is already skewed to penalise 'thirsty' cars, which are already penalised because the bulk of fuel cost is tax, and the more fuel you buy the more you pay in tax. The only result is going to be Britain's luxury car industry losing sales - in turn making them volume uncompetitive and therefore shedding jobs.
As always the Government tries to make things more complicated and more expensive than they need to be (Although at least this creates loads of jobs)
AS has been said by others:
Remove Road Tax, add an appropriate amount onto fuel tax to replace it job done.
You would no longer need all the administration and organisation of a Road Tax system (Got to save quite a few millions right there)
Cars that were used more would pay more tax
Cars that were more polluting and thirsty would pay more tax
People wouldn't be penalised for having a car for occasional use or for a fun weekend blast
AS has been said by others:
Remove Road Tax, add an appropriate amount onto fuel tax to replace it job done.
You would no longer need all the administration and organisation of a Road Tax system (Got to save quite a few millions right there)
Cars that were used more would pay more tax
Cars that were more polluting and thirsty would pay more tax
People wouldn't be penalised for having a car for occasional use or for a fun weekend blast
Edited by Valkirk on Thursday 4th October 16:29
Valkirk said:
As always the Government tries to make things more complicated and more expensive than they need to be (Although at least this creates loads of jobs)
AS has been said by others:
Remove Road Tax, add an appropriate amount onto fuel tax to replace it job done.
You would no longer need all the administration and organisation of a Road Tax system (Got to save quite a few millions right there)
Cars that were used more would pay more tax
Cars that were more polluting and thirsty would pay more tax
People wouldn't be penalised for having a car for occasional use or for a fun weekend blast
Way too simple and would work very well, so not a snowballs chance for that !! Just be thankful not paying Car Tax over here AS has been said by others:
Remove Road Tax, add an appropriate amount onto fuel tax to replace it job done.
You would no longer need all the administration and organisation of a Road Tax system (Got to save quite a few millions right there)
Cars that were used more would pay more tax
Cars that were more polluting and thirsty would pay more tax
People wouldn't be penalised for having a car for occasional use or for a fun weekend blast
Edited by Valkirk on Thursday 4th October 16:29
[quote=Dazed & Confused]I cannot understand why they don't tax fuel, as others have suggested. I guess the only problem is electric vehicles - as they'd be permanently tax free, as you cannot tell what electricity is going into which vehicle.
[/quote]
Fuel is already taxed, I think what you meant to say is you don't understand why they don't bundle VED (Car Tax) into the price of fuel, meaning people pay per mile. people with big engined thirsty cars, buy fuel more often so therefore pay more, than someone with a 500cc tuk tuk that they only take to the shops.
As for electric cars, if you charge it up at home, you are already paying tax as you pay tax on your electricity bill, it would be a very small thing for them to enforce you to notify your electricity provider that you have a plugin vehicle and that they need to add a VED rate on based on the units you use, most of the electricity providers want you to notify them of that anyway. also it could be managed by the dealer network/dvla as part of buying your car you have to provide your electricity provider details so they can notify them to apply the tax.
If you have a hybrid of course you will still be using petrol so you'll still be paying your VED at the pump.
When you think about it all the mechanisms required to do this are already in place, so there would actually be no/little cost in setting it all up, and a vast saving on manpower/admin costs for the police, post office, DVLA.
The biggest problem is of course that the government don't want to help the people, they want to wring every penny they can out of them! of course they won't bolt VED onto fuel costs (either petrol or home electricity), even though that is the most sensible, cost effective and FAIR method, because that would mean they couldn't bring in a new bit of legislation to charge you again for something you have already paid. Don't forget that VED was originally Road Fund License, ie you were paying to use the road network, now you are paying for your pollution because they could charge you more that way.
One could ask why are "classic cars" exempt? as they presumably emit more pollution than new ones. But then again I'm sure the classic car exemption is in the sights of the government idiots, so it probably wont be around for long.
The governments and think-tanks they use are all looking too short term, they haven't considered the effects there current decisions will have tomorrow, for example they implement the paper of car tax mentioned above, that will drop the call for luxury vehicles so ultimately companies like Aston Martin will end up laying of more people, so all they are doing is hurting British business even more than they already have. Its the same thing as with the 50% tax bracket, they say they are making the system fairer by taxing the high earners more, but think about it if you earnt £20k a year and you paid 50% in tax, that would mean you only have £10k to live on, most of the high earners employ staff at their homes (so in effect each of those homes is a small business), and if they hurt those earners too much what they will do is sell up and leave the country putting yet again more people out of work.
we can all rant all day, and every sensible person knows that bundling VED into fuel costs makes it fair (whether that is petrol, diesel or electricity, or boiled down jelly beans), but the governments wont do it because they will loose some money, even though they will make most of that money back in saved admin costs.
But of course lets not forget all the stupidly overpriced think tanks the government likes to employ to churn out endless reams of paper that basically are high on waffle and low on practicality and offer no practical advantage to the people that actually gave the government employees there jobs in the first place...
If I can ever manage to squirrel away some of the money by running my own business that the government doesnt tax me mercilessly on, maybe I'll just go and buy a small island and become a hermit some small islands in Nordica for example are reassuringly cheap.
[/quote]
Fuel is already taxed, I think what you meant to say is you don't understand why they don't bundle VED (Car Tax) into the price of fuel, meaning people pay per mile. people with big engined thirsty cars, buy fuel more often so therefore pay more, than someone with a 500cc tuk tuk that they only take to the shops.
As for electric cars, if you charge it up at home, you are already paying tax as you pay tax on your electricity bill, it would be a very small thing for them to enforce you to notify your electricity provider that you have a plugin vehicle and that they need to add a VED rate on based on the units you use, most of the electricity providers want you to notify them of that anyway. also it could be managed by the dealer network/dvla as part of buying your car you have to provide your electricity provider details so they can notify them to apply the tax.
If you have a hybrid of course you will still be using petrol so you'll still be paying your VED at the pump.
When you think about it all the mechanisms required to do this are already in place, so there would actually be no/little cost in setting it all up, and a vast saving on manpower/admin costs for the police, post office, DVLA.
The biggest problem is of course that the government don't want to help the people, they want to wring every penny they can out of them! of course they won't bolt VED onto fuel costs (either petrol or home electricity), even though that is the most sensible, cost effective and FAIR method, because that would mean they couldn't bring in a new bit of legislation to charge you again for something you have already paid. Don't forget that VED was originally Road Fund License, ie you were paying to use the road network, now you are paying for your pollution because they could charge you more that way.
One could ask why are "classic cars" exempt? as they presumably emit more pollution than new ones. But then again I'm sure the classic car exemption is in the sights of the government idiots, so it probably wont be around for long.
The governments and think-tanks they use are all looking too short term, they haven't considered the effects there current decisions will have tomorrow, for example they implement the paper of car tax mentioned above, that will drop the call for luxury vehicles so ultimately companies like Aston Martin will end up laying of more people, so all they are doing is hurting British business even more than they already have. Its the same thing as with the 50% tax bracket, they say they are making the system fairer by taxing the high earners more, but think about it if you earnt £20k a year and you paid 50% in tax, that would mean you only have £10k to live on, most of the high earners employ staff at their homes (so in effect each of those homes is a small business), and if they hurt those earners too much what they will do is sell up and leave the country putting yet again more people out of work.
we can all rant all day, and every sensible person knows that bundling VED into fuel costs makes it fair (whether that is petrol, diesel or electricity, or boiled down jelly beans), but the governments wont do it because they will loose some money, even though they will make most of that money back in saved admin costs.
But of course lets not forget all the stupidly overpriced think tanks the government likes to employ to churn out endless reams of paper that basically are high on waffle and low on practicality and offer no practical advantage to the people that actually gave the government employees there jobs in the first place...
If I can ever manage to squirrel away some of the money by running my own business that the government doesnt tax me mercilessly on, maybe I'll just go and buy a small island and become a hermit some small islands in Nordica for example are reassuringly cheap.
My concern, regardless of the merits or otherwise of this proposal, is that there doesn't seem to be any body or organisation that represents the views of PH'ers, petrolheads, and car enthusiasts more generally. The road safety and environmental lobbies are slick and well-organised, and as a result are successfully influencing government policy. The possible u-turn on the 80mph motorway speed limit proposal being just another example. Moaning to fellow enthusiasts on Pistonheads, while cathartic, isn't going to achieve anything, as it's only read by other enthusiasts. There must be hundreds of thousands of us (if Pistonheads membership and Top Gear viewing figures are anything to go by), but we are not represented. The ABD seems pretty ineffectual and the RAC and AA long ago stopped fighting the petrolheads' corner. We need a champion that can take on issues like this and get press releases out quickly etc to shape public opinion. I'd gladly pay a few quid each year to such an organisation for representation.
thefrog said:
VED on fuel gets my vote, better still, visiting tourists contribute to the road licence fund when driving and filling up in the UK.
Exactly! It's so bloody simple and staring everyone in the face. With the exception of appearing unpopular by raising the price of fuel, and finding a way to tax electric cars, I honestly can't see a drawback, given that it'd only really represent a small per-litre rise, the sort you routinely get anyway.oyster said:
f new cars become a lot more expensive, less of them will be sold. If there are less news cars bought then they'll be less used cars in years to come. Have a guess what will happen to the prices of used cars?
And the car industry will take another significant knock and those with profits gnerated in the UK (particularly those who manufacture here) will pay less corporation tax and then the civil servants who came up with this wheeze will need to increase the VED yet higher. A vicious circle that WE will be paying for ....
Still, they'll never price me out of a performance car!
r11co said:
These people are supposed to be economic experts FFS.
Unfortunately they're not - they are politicians. Barely any of them have any real skills or experience of anything other than being a politician. They get advice from civil servants who are economic experts, but this advice is ignored in favour of furthering their political cause.Lil'RedGTO said:
My concern, regardless of the merits or otherwise of this proposal, is that there doesn't seem to be any body or organisation that represents the views of PH'ers, petrolheads, and car enthusiasts more generally. The road safety and environmental lobbies are slick and well-organised, and as a result are successfully influencing government policy. The possible u-turn on the 80mph motorway speed limit proposal being just another example. Moaning to fellow enthusiasts on Pistonheads, while cathartic, isn't going to achieve anything, as it's only read by other enthusiasts. There must be hundreds of thousands of us (if Pistonheads membership and Top Gear viewing figures are anything to go by), but we are not represented. The ABD seems pretty ineffectual and the RAC and AA long ago stopped fighting the petrolheads' corner. We need a champion that can take on issues like this and get press releases out quickly etc to shape public opinion. I'd gladly pay a few quid each year to such an organisation for representation.
A valid and fair point! Whilst shouting individually as we do, whether on here, other forums or by means of those government epetitions we are not heard as one clear voice! Just had a look on the e petition site, there are already two petitions running to add ved to fuel duty, with a grand total of 7 signatures on both!!! This is precisely why we are at this juncture with regard to motoring
Look what Jamie Oilver can achieve with his ridiculous school dinner petition which from memory only had 271.5 k signings, hardly ground breaking! A £60 million initiative was then formed!
We need a hero for someone to champion our cause!
Edited by RX7 on Thursday 4th October 18:00
otolith said:
Planet London.
Bugger off. Almost none of these cretins are Londoners. They are parasitic village idiots from the outside who rush to suck at the tit of Westminster.
You can always tell the person in London who isn't a Londoner, they're the ones who think they are better than everyone else and thing they should be telling people what to do.
What we need is a t
t Tax so they can't afford to live here. I'm too lazy to read this whole thread, but as a shedder, this would be fantastic. It would also mean older cars staying on the road longer because they become much cheaper to run - which is ecologically sound.
(I love feeling smug in my 20 y/o Porsche as I overtake a Prius that I've kept all that lead, steel and plastic out of the bin)
(I love feeling smug in my 20 y/o Porsche as I overtake a Prius that I've kept all that lead, steel and plastic out of the bin)
Get over yourselves! We are all cash cows and the government needs more money to fund free healthcare for all visitors.
It also needs money to pay benefits to people who come here without ever paying anything into the country. Then it needs even more money to pay to other countries for their vanity projects, dictators Swiss bank accounts and to buy arms. Then it needs even more money to fund opera and art for London citizens and for railway shareholders & even more money for publicly owned directors of banks and bonuses for their employees. Sanity & logical thinking after that for the citizen is never going to happen. Finally to kill manufacturing in this country just tax it more & Liberal & Labour policies will do that! The question is how do we convince Mr. Cameron & the Tory party to see sense and tax less when local councils are plotting to tax even more of our money by petty parking rules, cameras and other schemes rather than realise that local councils are just too expensive. The chief of Wesr Sussex council earns £345,000 go figure the greed!
It also needs money to pay benefits to people who come here without ever paying anything into the country. Then it needs even more money to pay to other countries for their vanity projects, dictators Swiss bank accounts and to buy arms. Then it needs even more money to fund opera and art for London citizens and for railway shareholders & even more money for publicly owned directors of banks and bonuses for their employees. Sanity & logical thinking after that for the citizen is never going to happen. Finally to kill manufacturing in this country just tax it more & Liberal & Labour policies will do that! The question is how do we convince Mr. Cameron & the Tory party to see sense and tax less when local councils are plotting to tax even more of our money by petty parking rules, cameras and other schemes rather than realise that local councils are just too expensive. The chief of Wesr Sussex council earns £345,000 go figure the greed!
ok so the people who buy expensive performance cars say, sod this for a game of soldiers I'm going to buy a focus econetic and the expected massive windfall in tax to our dearly beloved government fails to materialize, whats the next step, well the government would hammer the eco friendly vehicles, oh no they can't do that they promissed ,ok they reduce the initial tax cost on a performance car but make the next owner pay the same amount as the first owner and so on, failing that they could increase vat on train fares, bus fares, treble ved on scooters/motor bikes and if the still want more the can tax pushbikes , hell they would tax and mot prams if they thought they could get away with it.
One thing is for sure, any change in revenue collection by the government will never benifit the motorist it will only benifit the exchequer.
One thing is for sure, any change in revenue collection by the government will never benifit the motorist it will only benifit the exchequer.
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