Gas-guzzling sportscars to receive purchase tax up to £23K

Gas-guzzling sportscars to receive purchase tax up to £23K

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RX7

258 posts

243 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
Twincam16 said:
The biggest travesty of the lot is the fact that avgas isn't taxed. This is ludicrous given the fuel used and emissions produced.
I mentioned this earlier in a post. Think i am right in saying its also free of Vat, please correct me if i am wrong someone!

I see air travel as for more of a luxury than car travel and as you say, far more polluting and can it also be factored in that the emissions are directly put into the atmosphere?

.85 kg of Co2 per km by air
.2 kg of Co2 km by single occupant vehicle.

So why isnt it taxed to the hilt like the motorist, i guess there are a few factors, probably the main one being the Gov would be concerned that companies operating out of the UK's major airports would probably move their HQ abroad, resulting in, loss of jobs, tax revenue blah blah blah.

The increase in air travel costs would only be passed down to the end user, us. However, i find it astonishing that you can fly so cheap these days and dont think it would be out of place to start looking at alternative means of revenue rather than the good old, lets find it from motorists, alcohol, tobacco, vat, income tax, the rich etc


0000

13,812 posts

190 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
RX7 said:
.85 kg of Co2 per km by air
.2 kg of Co2 km by single occupant vehicle.
Where are your figures from?

Wikipedia said:
Domestic, short distance, less than 463 km (288 mi): 257 g/km CO2 or 259 g/km (5.6 oz/mile) CO2e
Domestic, long distance, greater than 463 km (288 mi): 177 g/km CO2 or 178 g/km (3.7 oz/mile) CO2e
Long distance flights: 113 g/km CO2 or 114 g/km (2.5 oz/mile) CO2e
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation

Roma101

835 posts

146 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
Agree with the comments re policy being dictated from an city/urban point of view, but please don't lump all city dwellers as being "one of them". Car enthusiasts with a broader perspective of life and the world do live in central London you know!

Re the actual policy, its the beginning of the end if it happens. The "end" being the Govt realising that the car industry has responded well to its tax system and as a result the Govt are now (I think) not making as much money from VED as before. The Govt's response being to change it so that they can get as much money as possible. Not that surprising really.

I applied the policy to a new car I was going to buy recently and based on me only keeping it for 3 years, I would pay over 700% more tax under the new system than the existing system. The car would have to live for 20 years before the Govt got the same amount of tax under the existing system compared to the new system. The car being around in 20 years is unlikely given its nature.

RX7

258 posts

243 months

croyde

22,702 posts

229 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
Remember in the 80s, when diesel engined cars were rare but supposedly better for the environment thus diesel was much cheaper than petrol. Yeah! well what happened?

Everyone got oil burners and the price of the fuel went up and is now more than petrol, oh! and diesel is more polluting apparently.

Will every in 2040 look back at this period and laugh at the fact that we taxed on CO2 output. I'm laughing now. If it's really gonna kill us all ban it, don't charge more for it biggrin

Twincam16

27,646 posts

257 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
RX7 said:
Twincam16 said:
The biggest travesty of the lot is the fact that avgas isn't taxed. This is ludicrous given the fuel used and emissions produced.
I mentioned this earlier in a post. Think i am right in saying its also free of Vat, please correct me if i am wrong someone!

I see air travel as for more of a luxury than car travel and as you say, far more polluting and can it also be factored in that the emissions are directly put into the atmosphere?

.85 kg of Co2 per km by air
.2 kg of Co2 km by single occupant vehicle.

So why isnt it taxed to the hilt like the motorist, i guess there are a few factors, probably the main one being the Gov would be concerned that companies operating out of the UK's major airports would probably move their HQ abroad, resulting in, loss of jobs, tax revenue blah blah blah.

The increase in air travel costs would only be passed down to the end user, us. However, i find it astonishing that you can fly so cheap these days and dont think it would be out of place to start looking at alternative means of revenue rather than the good old, lets find it from motorists, alcohol, tobacco, vat, income tax, the rich etc
I'm not so sure they're worried about hitting business. In fact it could be argued that such cheap air travel makes it easier to run a business offshore and avoid tax.

No, I suggest that the reason they're terrified about taxing avgas as it should be is because they'd lose the working-class vote.

Think about it - the minute air travel got walloped, be it through taxing airline tickets or the airlines passing the costs on to the customers, whichever party was in opposition at the time would couch it to look like the government were trying to take away the masses' two weeks on the Costa del Shellsuit. Cue the loss of the working-class vote and accusations that they were trying to keep foreign travel for the rich. It'd be an electoral disaster.

Doesn't mean it isn't fair though.

irocfan

40,153 posts

189 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
RX7 said:
I feel all dirty even clicking on that link lol

RX7

258 posts

243 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
irocfan said:
I feel all dirty even clicking on that link lol
It was only sourced for info, i have washed and given myself a stern talking too smile

Sure the money (revenue) has got to come from somewhere but starting to get really tired of voting a party in on the hope of promises and pledges only to end up getting shafted by each and everyone of them!

I wonder if any mp's read ph?

Goodfella 555

199 posts

167 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
The largest human contributor to Co2 isn't cars (road based transport = 10% of all CO2) or aircraft (air trafic = 1% of CO2) it is shipping, by a long margin. Instead of taxing motorists on the grounds of the environment why doesn't the government tax products that are shipped here which does actually have massive environmental impact. This would also increase the competitiveness of British manaufacturing. If this country has such a large deficit etc how about reducing taxes? This would encourage more people to save for their old age and enable people to spend more. It would reduce unemployment, benefits etc, the richer we become the richer the nation will become. The problem with this government is that many of them have never had a normal job and lived in the real world, so all they do is help the poor and help the rich whilst the majority in the middle are held down by ridiculous taxes, which in the end is detrimental to all.

croyde

22,702 posts

229 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
What I will never understand in all these debates is why we have the answers yet those that govern us do not.

It's the same when the oiks down the pub are discussing football teams and tactics biggrin

(I say the above fully believing that the simplest way is the correct way ie raising duty on fuel instead of VED and raising, shock horror, income tax. Surely 2% extra cannot hurt the low paid or be much of a bother to the upper classes but would raise billions)

T16OLE

2,944 posts

190 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
oyster said:
f new cars become a lot more expensive, less of them will be sold. If there are less news cars bought then they'll be less used cars in years to come. Have a guess what will happen to the prices of used cars?
Agreed, basically going totally against what they were pushing with the scrappage scheme. Barmy

RX7

258 posts

243 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
Twincam16 said:
Think about it - the minute air travel got walloped, be it through taxing airline tickets or the airlines passing the costs on to the customers, whichever party was in opposition at the time would couch it to look like the government were trying to take away the masses' two weeks on the Costa del Shellsuit. Cue the loss of the working-class vote and accusations that they were trying to keep foreign travel for the rich. It'd be an electoral disaster.

Doesn't mean it isn't fair though.
Surely the working class have cars too, i think i am one, i am not so sure there is a middle class anymore smile If the average motoring yearly bill was cheaper, money saved could be put towards extra air travel.

I guess even if they did that to subsidize hammering the motorist, they would still try and fleece us.

Seems a viscous circle though, the more tax hits on the motorist, the less people will drive, as proven with lose in petrol sales! Encourage us out of cars and have to make do with the revenue shortfall, its a crazy world.

dca

6 posts

222 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
They should just do what they do here in Denmark...

C63 AMG before you buy Danish number plates 60.300,00 EUR

Price of Danish number plates 141.427,56

Total price to be paid day 1 EUR 201.727,56

Annual road tax EUR 1054,24

Yes, it is absolutely hell on earth...

RX7

258 posts

243 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
A lot of chat about being worse in varying countries.

Would be very handy to know a little more than that, as based solely on vehicle costs and tax, ved and fuel duty it doesnt paint the big picture.

There is so much more than, we pay more for this or that.

What is the average wage
What is the average house price
What rate is vat and income tax

The list can go on and on.

I dont doubt that some countries have it worse than us however, but i feel most complaints here are down to the ongoing war agianst the motorist and political parties not keeping their promises and pledges and being blinkered at how to increase revenue, also whilst bowing to the whole climate change pier pressure groups as to our c02 emissions.

As someone else mentions, hardly concerning when the worst offenders just keep pumping out the Co2 without a care in the world, or for the world! Its a very easy question to answer why things cost less from China smile

dca

6 posts

222 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
RX7 said:
A lot of chat about being worse in varying countries.

Would be very handy to know a little more than that, as based solely on vehicle costs and tax, ved and fuel duty it doesnt paint the big picture.

There is so much more than, we pay more for this or that.

What is the average wage
What is the average house price
What rate is vat and income tax

The list can go on and on.

I dont doubt that some countries have it worse than us however, but i feel most complaints here are down to the ongoing war agianst the motorist and political parties not keeping their promises and pledges and being blinkered at how to increase revenue, also whilst bowing to the whole climate change pier pressure groups as to our c02 emissions.

As someone else mentions, hardly concerning when the worst offenders just keep pumping out the Co2 without a care in the world, or for the world! Its a very easy question to answer why things cost less from China smile
If you don't make a lot in DK, the tax is among the highest in EU, the problem is, that with income which would enable you to buy cars at these prices, income taxes are around +60%, though they have gone slightly during the last few years. VAT is 25% on everything, gas is slightly less than the UK but pretty similar. I do understand your post - but as a car enthusiast Dane, I'm very protective of how bad I'm off... wink

Leins

9,418 posts

147 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
RX7 said:
A lot of chat about being worse in varying countries.

Would be very handy to know a little more than that, as based solely on vehicle costs and tax, ved and fuel duty it doesnt paint the big picture.

There is so much more than, we pay more for this or that.

What is the average wage
What is the average house price
What rate is vat and income tax

The list can go on and on.

I dont doubt that some countries have it worse than us however, but i feel most complaints here are down to the ongoing war agianst the motorist and political parties not keeping their promises and pledges and being blinkered at how to increase revenue, also whilst bowing to the whole climate change pier pressure groups as to our c02 emissions.

As someone else mentions, hardly concerning when the worst offenders just keep pumping out the Co2 without a care in the world, or for the world! Its a very easy question to answer why things cost less from China smile
Off the top of my head, here in Rep of Ireland:

Avg salary c. €30k
Avg house price €170k (not much selling though!)
Income tax c. 52% ( lower tax-free bands than UK too)
VAT rate 22%
Litre petrol €1.70
Avg price of pint €4-ish

Ex rate £1 = €1.24

ratty6464

628 posts

209 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
I'm sure one of the "opportunities" that a single tax would give the government, is that introducing road tolls would be a lot easier with the majority of road users not forking out VED

ADM06

1,077 posts

171 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
There should be no vehicle related taxes other than VAT until the roads are actually worth paying to use.
I'm sick of paying first class prices for second class service.

irocfan

40,153 posts

189 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
ADM06 said:
There should be no vehicle related taxes other than VAT until the roads are actually worth paying to use.
I'm sick of paying first class prices for second class service.
hell I'd be happy with a second class service frown

P2BS

3,589 posts

142 months

Friday 5th October 2012
quotequote all
otolith said:
Twincam16 said:
this were implemented the roads would be full of godawful eco-bubbles within 10-15 years. That's probably what they're trying to achieve anyway, but I can imagine the second-hand market will be a pretty grim place to be in a decade or so if this was the case. Everything will be a timebomb diesel, a thrashy little petrol on its last legs, or a gutless hybrid.
I hate to judge a person by appearances, but this is the man behind the proposal;



He looks like he'd like that.
Cough <GEEK> Cough

The Irish road tax system is crackers, but the symptom of a small country with an excellently abusable unemployments benefits system that has got to be paid for somehow. So they're trying to raise some cash, and the motorist - like everyone else in the world - is the softest touch.

My mum drives an 05 Colt 1.1, my dad has a 02 CRV 2.0. They pay €278 & €660 per year respectively. Fuel costs are similar to the UK, and insurance is probably also on a par.

Don't worry, the system won't change any time soon. And if it ever does, it won't be for the better (of course).

Edited by P2BS on Friday 5th October 22:25