Gas-guzzling sportscars to receive purchase tax up to £23K

[AC43]

Changedmyname said:

AC43 said:

Buy even cheaper used V8's and avoid it. Simple.

But someone somewhere will have to buy it in the first place so they become second,and that poor sod will lose a hell of a lot.

Being serious for a minute it was hard enough finding a MY 2005 E500 in 2010 when I bought mine and it will be virtually impossible to buy the equivalent 2008 one if I trade up in 2013. Even in 2005 they were only registering something like 50 a year and by 2008 that was down to less than 10 a year. Sad days for petrolheads :-(

[Soovy]

GavinPearson said:

Why does the UK Government feel the need to tax people even more?

This is about playing to the galleries. Politics of envy, nothing more.

"Oh look, he can afford an Aston Martin, you can't, you never will, your life is not as nice as his....... Look at his second home, and his pretty wife, and his handsome children who go to a good school. He has all the things you want. And you don't.

Look at us beat him up and take his money off him. There, see, we're on your side, the side of "fairness......

Now vote for us...........




This is about winning votes from those who are in some way dissatisfied with their lives, and can't bear the fact that someone is doing better than they are, despite the fact that our destiny is generally in our own hands, along with success.

[Twincam16]

AC43 said:

Changedmyname said:

AC43 said:

Buy even cheaper used V8's and avoid it. Simple.

But someone somewhere will have to buy it in the first place so they become second,and that poor sod will lose a hell of a lot.

Being serious for a minute it was hard enough finding a MY 2005 E500 in 2010 when I bought mine and it will be virtually impossible to buy the equivalent 2008 one if I trade up in 2013. Even in 2005 they were only registering something like 50 a year and by 2008 that was down to less than 10 a year. Sad days for petrolheads :-(

It's not good for the second hand market either. I buy used, and I look for normally-aspirated mid-range petrol engines that are fundamentally simple, and have a nice balance of power, torque and economy. Typically speaking, anything between 1.6 and 2.2 is ideal for any given journey on British roads. The fuel economy won't be the absolute best, but it will be acceptable. The emissions won't the the absolute lowest, but they will be acceptable. Point is, the engine is manageable and has longevity.

Try finding a car with an engine like that these days in the second hand market. Anything within that size bracket seems to be diesel, with things like DPFs and DMFs to deal with and service intervals twice as frequent as their petrol equivalents. On smaller cars, people are buying tiny little engines with turbochargers, great when they're new, but their internals wear out faster and the average motorist doesn't keep a check on the oil level or idle the engine for a minute before switching off to allow the turbo to cool.

And why is that? First-year taxation rates and Co2-based tax bandings. They look at spec sheets and read these stern government warnings about the environment, then buy a car that ironically will cost them more to run in the long term, be ready to scrap earlier when more of its parts are still in as-new condition, and get rid of it sooner once scares about outside-warranty reliability issues start to surface.

This tax regime is ruining the second-hand market. Truth is, so long as emissions are below 200g/km, most modern cars will cost no more to run than an older car under the old capacity-related tax brackets, so those mid-sized normally-aspirated petrols are still just as cost-effective in the long run.

[anonymous-user]

Unfortunately politicians are NOT scientists. And once again, they completely fail to understand the importance of cutting "majority emissions" first. (Rather than minority ones)

For example, Car A outputs 10 chunks of polution for every km it is driven, compared to CAR B, which is only puts out 1 chunk / km.

Clearely, Car A is much more poluting. Except of course, for every km driven by CarA, 1000kms are driven by CarB. To lower overall emissions the most, which car should you tax more???

[Twincam16]

Soovy said:

GavinPearson said:

Why does the UK Government feel the need to tax people even more?

This is about playing to the galleries. Politics of envy, nothing more.

"Oh look, he can afford an Aston Martin, you can't, you never will, your life is not as nice as his....... Look at his second home, and his pretty wife, and his handsome children who go to a good school. He has all the things you want. And you don't.

Look at us beat him up and take his money off him. There, see, we're on your side, the side of "fairness......

Now vote for us...........




This is about winning votes from those who are in some way dissatisfied with their lives, and can't bear the fact that someone is doing better than they are, despite the fact that our destiny is generally in our own hands, along with success.

I'm not convinced by that, given that it'll hit MPVs just as hard.

[otolith]

Twincam16 said:

I'm not convinced by that, given that it'll hit MPVs just as hard.

Collateral damage.

[plfrench]

Max_Torque said:

Unfortunately politicians are NOT scientists. And once again, they completely fail to understand the importance of cutting "majority emissions" first. (Rather than minority ones)

For example, Car A outputs 10 chunks of polution for every km it is driven, compared to CAR B, which is only puts out 1 chunk / km.

Clearely, Car A is much more poluting. Except of course, for every km driven by CarA, 1000kms are driven by CarB. To lower overall emissions the most, which car should you tax more???

Precisely - tax on fuel alone would be the fairest and most sensbile way, directly linked to actual fuel used, not some hypothetical use.

[Twincam16]

otolith said:

Twincam16 said:

I'm not convinced by that, given that it'll hit MPVs just as hard.

Collateral damage.

My point is, it won't win any votes with anyone they're trying to convince with a 'let's hit the rich again' tax. It will affect all but the smallest, frankly most family-unfriendly cars on the road, from an extra grand on a supermini right up to silly money on a supercar.

The only people this policy will probably find favour with will be people like this:






It'll annoy anyone outside the London/urbanite bubble, particularly anyone with a family. Something really needs to be done to curb the influence of big-city policy making on the rest of the country. Fewer people than the politicians think live in them, conditions of life in small towns and rural areas - or even just outer suburbia - are totally different, the people living there don't particularly want or need to change their lifestyles along the lines of someone living 50+ miles away with totally different aims and outlooks in life.

[otolith]

Worth noting that what the proposal actually suggests is scrapping the annual VED (road tax) charge and replacing it with a massive up-front charge. I can actually see the logic in that, in that it will tend to discourage the first purchase (end hence the building) of thirsty cars rather than the subsequent ownership. Taxing someone 400 quid a year to run a thirsty car which has already been built achieves nothing other than perhaps encouraging it to be scrapped earlier, a somewhat wasteful outcome.

I still don't like it, but taxing creation is more logical than taxing subsequent ownership.

[Twincam16]

otolith said:

Worth noting that what the proposal actually suggests is scrapping the annual VED (road tax) charge and replacing it with a massive up-front charge. I can actually see the logic in that, in that it will tend to discourage the first purchase (end hence the building) of thirsty cars rather than the subsequent ownership. Taxing someone 400 quid a year to run a thirsty car which has already been built achieves nothing other than perhaps encouraging it to be scrapped earlier, a somewhat wasteful outcome.

I still don't like it, but taxing creation is more logical than taxing subsequent ownership.

They'd never scrap VED. They'd talk about it but never actually do it, lumbering us with an extra tax.

[otolith]

Twincam16 said:

They'd never scrap VED. They'd talk about it but never actually do it, lumbering us with an extra tax.

In which case, the proposal doesn't suggest any change at all, because we currently have both annual VED and a large emissions related charge at registration.

[otolith]

Twincam16 said:

It'll annoy anyone outside the London/urbanite bubble, particularly anyone with a family. Something really needs to be done to curb the influence of big-city policy making on the rest of the country.

It won't - because people are stupid and selfish and hypocritical, and will lap up the suggestion that it is going to hit 4x4s and sportscars. The target for the legislation isn't your hated urban hipsters, it's the kind of Picasso driving schoolrun mum who thinks everybody else is part of the problem.

(target in terms of voters, not victims)

Edited by otolith on Wednesday 3rd October 14:35

[0000]

It's just squeezing every last penny out of the poor sods who have to earn a living. No wonder people just give up and claim benefits.

[Pothole]

Relax, chaps. It's not going to happen.

[croyde]

Something they never seem to consider is that having made it law that all kids under the age of 11 have to be on some form of child or booster seat, has forced families with 3 or more kids into bigger cars.

I found this out as my Discovery 3 was sold and being driven away, a decision that I felt forced on me by the complete anti 4x4 bks in 2008 that was going to see the congestion charge raised, tax raised and parking charges raised as well as constant vandalism and keying by eco-mentalists, and then trying and failing to get a child seat and two boosters into the back of my 1998 3-series saloon.

[Leins]

A lex said:

You think? Maybe not now, maybe not with this government - but its going to happen.

Have a look at places like The Netherlands and Denmark. Im guessing the median income is pretty similar, yet the price of motoring compared to the UK is massively higher. People who want/need a car still have one, they just pay through the nose.

If you think the UK government doesnt look at this and thinks "hmmmm, we'll have a bit of that", I think you are in denial.

A diesel Ford Mondeo in a reasonable spec costs about 50k euro to buy here and between 2-3k PA in VED (depending on your province). Its even higher in Denmark.

A good mate of mine drives a Chevy Corvette Z06. Bought new in the UK for 55k GBP. Same car here is 162k euro. In Denmark it almost 2M krone (268k euro!). His o/h is Danish and they quite often take the car there - people think he is a celebrity or a millionaire to be driving around in such a car - yet it cost him less than what locals pay for Kia Ceeds

But in a lot of those European countries at least they factor in the age of the cars and drop the cost of tax accordingly. Here in Rep of Ireland, they tax everything from 1982-2007 on CC regardless of age, so even something like a 25 year old BMW 535i will cost €1683 for 12 months motor tax. And new cars are subjected to CO2-related registration tax of around 40% before you are allowed drive them. Even if you bring in a secondhand car from abroad they will charge you a registration tax before you'll get your plates (eg 1990 BMW M3 is currently around €4000). Don't pay it and they'll confiscate the car

This has fairly decimated the secondhand car market, so that all the interesting stuff has disappeared, either to the scrap-heap or back abroad again. And of the new cars that are being bought, the most exotic you will find here are 2L diesels. Everyone is scared of higher rates of annual motor tax that now runs up to €2100 for anything with a higher CO2 figure since 2008. Very difficult being a car enthusiast here, and what generally happens is people either "chance it" and don't pay, or like me you just have to keep them locked away for most of the year

And the ironic thing is, because of all the scrappage schemes and taxation of the "gas guzzlers", the government here is now complaining because their tax intake from the average car is far lower than it was a few years ago. Clowns!

Edited by Leins on Wednesday 3rd October 15:04

[renrut]

Soovy said:

This is about winning votes from those who are in some way dissatisfied with their lives, and can't bear the fact that someone is doing better than they are, despite the fact that our destiny is generally in our own hands, along with success.

Well said.

[sealtt]

Cars are very cheap in UK.

Compare to majority of places in the world and we get a great deal. so not surprising if some taxes are added.... but a shame if it goes thru, and less reason to stay in the country.

[Twincam16]

sealtt said:

Cars are very cheap in UK.

Compare to majority of places in the world and we get a great deal. so not surprising if some taxes are added.... but a shame if it goes thru, and less reason to stay in the country.

Really? Then why don't we get stuff like the Dacia Logan and Fiat Palio?

Model-for-model the cars may be cheaper, but we get denied truly cheap cars that the rest of Europe is 'allowed'.

[Pothole]

A lex said:

Pothole said:

Relax, chaps. It's not going to happen.

You think? Maybe not now, maybe not with this government - but its going to happen.

Have a look at places like The Netherlands and Denmark. Im guessing the median income is pretty similar, yet the price of motoring compared to the UK is massively higher. People who want/need a car still have one, they just pay through the nose.

If you think the UK government doesnt look at this and thinks "hmmmm, we'll have a bit of that", I think you are in denial.

A diesel Ford Mondeo in a reasonable spec costs about 50k euro to buy here and between 2-3k PA in VED (depending on your province). Its even higher in Denmark.

A good mate of mine drives a Chevy Corvette Z06. Bought new in the UK for 55k GBP. Same car here is 162k euro. In Denmark it almost 2M krone (268k euro!). His o/h is Danish and they quite often take the car there - people think he is a celebrity or a millionaire to be driving around in such a car - yet it cost him less than what locals pay for Kia Ceeds.

Perhaps my point was unclear. This specific recommendation will not be implemented by the current government. Not only because the bloke making the recommendation is a very dodgy appointment and will get found out and sacked quite soon I expect, but also because the UK has a significant share of the luxury car market which could be significantly affected. With all due respect to Spyker and Zenvo, the two countries you're using as examples don't.