Still a £$&£$ on the log book
Discussion
Slow said:
Sorry but cant you change the engine and then just declare it as a mod to your insurance without changing log book?
That entirely depends on the attitude of the DVLA office to the extent of the modifications. Currently such modifications will require a minimum of full identification and sourcing of all the parts used and a qualified motor engineers report as to adequacy.However, as usual the sting is in the tail with bureaucracy. Last year I registered five kit cars built from sinlge donor fully documented vehicles abd included all the information on each build. Tworequired IVA, costing me £600 each odd allowing for the fee and transport thereto. Three did not but I had a devil of a job getting these cars accepted by the DVLA and this took me six months of negotiation on each car.
The Banam Sprite I registered was entirely based on a Wood And Pickett Mini complete with an excellent A series Wood And Pickett 1340 engine. The Westfield I registered built from a twenty year old genuine full Westfeild kit but with modern mechanics was easier but still took some time to resolve. The Quantum RS turbo I registered was a nightmare which took almost a year to resolve. The individual at the DVLA wanted a letter of confirmation from Quantum confirming the original sales invoice for the chassis tub from Quantum was genuine. Quantum ceased trading ( in that form) some years ago. I think you can rehash nw see the real problems.
I could not have got the Banham registered via IVA because there is no economic way to bring such kits up to IVA requirements. Furthermore these cars were all genuine donor cars all the parts coming from one still registered donor vehicle. That is why these threads on PH offer a real service to unsuspecting buyers. The days of simply applying for the registration of a different engine have long gone and in consequence I will no longer entertain such cars unless I am absolutely certain that registration can be effected. This is particularly true of the many who appear on the web as 'barn finds' with the blandishments like "just needs regstering" profferred by the seller. Just not true any more and we all need to be aware of the real pitfalls in this process.
Steffan - don't really understand you at all there. He's asked about declaring the engine to your insurance but NOT declaring it to the DVLA, therefore I see no reason why that wouldn't be possible, in fact, I know loads of people who've done exactly that. I certainly don't see how the insurance company's decision to insure you would "entirely depend on the attitude of the DVLA office to the extent of the modifications" - I doubt they'd even check with the DVLA, and would simply quote you the same higher price they'd quote whether the engine was declared to the DVLA or not.
Still illegal of course, personally I couldn't care less, but I can see how it might be annoying if you've spent so much time and effort doing it the "right way".
Still illegal of course, personally I couldn't care less, but I can see how it might be annoying if you've spent so much time and effort doing it the "right way".
Geekman said:
Steffan - don't really understand you at all there. He's asked about declaring the engine to your insurance but NOT declaring it to the DVLA, therefore I see no reason why that wouldn't be possible, in fact, I know loads of people who've done exactly that. I certainly don't see how the insurance company's decision to insure you would "entirely depend on the attitude of the DVLA office to the extent of the modifications" - I doubt they'd even check with the DVLA, and would simply quote you the same higher price they'd quote whether the engine was declared to the DVLA or not.
Still illegal of course, personally I couldn't care less, but I can see how it might be annoying if you've spent so much time and effort doing it the "right way".
It makes no difference at all. I have (or hypothetically I have, or might have, or maybe it was my friend, or a passing piano tuner who told me about it) insured cars with undeclared engine conversions. Still illegal of course, personally I couldn't care less, but I can see how it might be annoying if you've spent so much time and effort doing it the "right way".
Specialist insurers, by and large, don't really seem to care. They go by a simpler risk calculation based on likelihood of theft, overall valuation and so on.
So when this mystery person attempted to insure what was, on the logbook, a 1.6 Ginetta they cared little for the fact a 2 litre engine was fitted. The mystery person was quite happy about it though.
I started this thread to highlight vehicles for sale with undeclared engine swaps. A good friend of mine bought an E36 touring with an M3 Evo 3.2 engine that turned out to be from a stolen car. He was arrested for receiving stolen goods and the theft of the motor vehicle.
Once his innocence was established he was de-arrested but still lost the car and all the money he paid for it.
Undeclared engine swaps for sale with "Still a £$&£$ on the log book" and "up to the new keeper to change" are a pain in the cheeks waiting to happen. Depending on the conversion, engineers reports, IVA/SVA assessments and a world of hurt if you do get stopped and the donor engine turns out to be illegitimate.
People who do swaps and then sell vehicles years later without declaring them may not be the biggest problem in the world but leaving the financial and logistical burden to the new owner is beyond scumbag in my opinion. Not to mention the fact they may well have been committing Tax fraud the whole time the vehicle was in their ownership.
Once his innocence was established he was de-arrested but still lost the car and all the money he paid for it.
Undeclared engine swaps for sale with "Still a £$&£$ on the log book" and "up to the new keeper to change" are a pain in the cheeks waiting to happen. Depending on the conversion, engineers reports, IVA/SVA assessments and a world of hurt if you do get stopped and the donor engine turns out to be illegitimate.
People who do swaps and then sell vehicles years later without declaring them may not be the biggest problem in the world but leaving the financial and logistical burden to the new owner is beyond scumbag in my opinion. Not to mention the fact they may well have been committing Tax fraud the whole time the vehicle was in their ownership.
Liquid Knight said:
I started this thread to highlight vehicles for sale with undeclared engine swaps. A good friend of mine bought an E36 touring with an M3 Evo 3.2 engine that turned out to be from a stolen car. He was arrested for receiving stolen goods and the theft of the motor vehicle.
Once his innocence was established he was de-arrested but still lost the car and all the money he paid for it.
Undeclared engine swaps for sale with "Still a £$&£$ on the log book" and "up to the new keeper to change" are a pain in the cheeks waiting to happen. Depending on the conversion, engineers reports, IVA/SVA assessments and a world of hurt if you do get stopped and the donor engine turns out to be illegitimate.
People who do swaps and then sell vehicles years later without declaring them may not be the biggest problem in the world but leaving the financial and logistical burden to the new owner is beyond scumbag in my opinion. Not to mention the fact they may well have been committing Tax fraud the whole time the vehicle was in their ownership.
I entirely agree. Regrettably there is a growing element in motoring who regard cheating the Revenue, insurance companies, the DVLA and so on as perfectly acceptable. It is not, they are effecting criminal acts daily and I think this is very bad news. Effectively uninsured vehicles on the road where the insurance company are unaware of the true specification of the car cannot be acceptable. Liquid knight's factual illustration demonstrates how costly buying such nonsenses can be. Personally I now avoid them for that reason. Over the years I have bought many cars without documentation and unseen. Thus far I have never had a problem. I no longer do that primarily because I share Liquid Knights concerns. Best avoided sadly IMO.Once his innocence was established he was de-arrested but still lost the car and all the money he paid for it.
Undeclared engine swaps for sale with "Still a £$&£$ on the log book" and "up to the new keeper to change" are a pain in the cheeks waiting to happen. Depending on the conversion, engineers reports, IVA/SVA assessments and a world of hurt if you do get stopped and the donor engine turns out to be illegitimate.
People who do swaps and then sell vehicles years later without declaring them may not be the biggest problem in the world but leaving the financial and logistical burden to the new owner is beyond scumbag in my opinion. Not to mention the fact they may well have been committing Tax fraud the whole time the vehicle was in their ownership.
Steffan said:
I entirely agree. Regrettably there is a growing element in motoring who regard cheating the Revenue, insurance companies, the DVLA and so on as perfectly acceptable. It is not, they are effecting criminal acts daily and I think this is very bad news. Effectively uninsured vehicles on the road where the insurance company are unaware of the true specification of the car cannot be acceptable. Liquid knight's factual illustration demonstrates how costly buying such nonsenses can be. Personally I now avoid them for that reason. Over the years I have bought many cars without documentation and unseen. Thus far I have never had a problem. I no longer do that primarily because I share Liquid Knights concerns. Best avoided sadly IMO.
Any chance of a response to my post regarding insurance? As myself and others have said, pretty sure it's entirely possible to declare the engine swap to your insurance and not the DVLA, despite what you previously said.Change of capacity would invalidate the M.O.T. As you will be driving without an M.O.T (three to six points by itself) your insurance will not be valid either as the vehicle has to be M.O.T'd to be insured (another six points on your licence) unless you are driving to a pre-booked test appointment.
If you declared the engine change to the M.O.T tester and the numbers do not match the V5C then the vehicle will not pass the test until the changes to the documentation are made. If the vehicle is allowed through the test and certificate issued the M.O.T station is highly likely to be audited by VOSA if the vehicle is involved in any kind of incident (VOSA can issue penalties of up to £10,000 per discrepancy following an audit and a few less legitimate M.O.T centers have closed and owners declared bankrupt as a result. The chances of them risking this is minimal). If your vehicle is involved in an incident the M.O.T will be invalidated by a Police or VOSA vehicle inspector, the insurance will then be invalidated by default and you go back to square one, but because it has taken more effort for the Police to establish the facts. In this hypothetical case your vehicle with an undeclared engine swap and change of capacity is involved in an incident. The CPS will try to get back as much of the investigation cost as possible and throw the book at you in court insisting the maximum penalties be awarded. So expect at least £2000 in fines as well as twelve points and therefore a ban.
Here's the real sting in the tail. If your vehicle is on a public road and involved in any kind of collision it will be your fault. Even if it's parked and a drink driver going three times the speed limit whilst being pursued by the Police rams into it. The collision will be your fault for having an uninsured, non-M.O.T's vehicle on a public road. Then as the vehicle is not insured the Motor Insurance Bureau will have to pay up instead. You will have to pay them back. Total loss of the second vehicle and injuries sustained can mean for the sake of a stamp (to tell the DVLA about the engine swap) and possibly a little higher tax (if there's a change of capacity and CO2 rating) you could be facing up to a millions Pounds of debt.
I hope that answers your question. If you declare an engine swap to your insurers without declaring it to the DVLA you vehicle will not have a valid M.O.T and therefore will not be insured.
If you declared the engine change to the M.O.T tester and the numbers do not match the V5C then the vehicle will not pass the test until the changes to the documentation are made. If the vehicle is allowed through the test and certificate issued the M.O.T station is highly likely to be audited by VOSA if the vehicle is involved in any kind of incident (VOSA can issue penalties of up to £10,000 per discrepancy following an audit and a few less legitimate M.O.T centers have closed and owners declared bankrupt as a result. The chances of them risking this is minimal). If your vehicle is involved in an incident the M.O.T will be invalidated by a Police or VOSA vehicle inspector, the insurance will then be invalidated by default and you go back to square one, but because it has taken more effort for the Police to establish the facts. In this hypothetical case your vehicle with an undeclared engine swap and change of capacity is involved in an incident. The CPS will try to get back as much of the investigation cost as possible and throw the book at you in court insisting the maximum penalties be awarded. So expect at least £2000 in fines as well as twelve points and therefore a ban.
Here's the real sting in the tail. If your vehicle is on a public road and involved in any kind of collision it will be your fault. Even if it's parked and a drink driver going three times the speed limit whilst being pursued by the Police rams into it. The collision will be your fault for having an uninsured, non-M.O.T's vehicle on a public road. Then as the vehicle is not insured the Motor Insurance Bureau will have to pay up instead. You will have to pay them back. Total loss of the second vehicle and injuries sustained can mean for the sake of a stamp (to tell the DVLA about the engine swap) and possibly a little higher tax (if there's a change of capacity and CO2 rating) you could be facing up to a millions Pounds of debt.
I hope that answers your question. If you declare an engine swap to your insurers without declaring it to the DVLA you vehicle will not have a valid M.O.T and therefore will not be insured.
Geekman said:
Steffan said:
I entirely agree. Regrettably there is a growing element in motoring who regard cheating the Revenue, insurance companies, the DVLA and so on as perfectly acceptable. It is not, they are effecting criminal acts daily and I think this is very bad news. Effectively uninsured vehicles on the road where the insurance company are unaware of the true specification of the car cannot be acceptable. Liquid knight's factual illustration demonstrates how costly buying such nonsenses can be. Personally I now avoid them for that reason. Over the years I have bought many cars without documentation and unseen. Thus far I have never had a problem. I no longer do that primarily because I share Liquid Knights concerns. Best avoided sadly IMO.
Any chance of a response to my post regarding insurance? As myself and others have said, pretty sure it's entirely possible to declare the engine swap to your insurance and not the DVLA, despite what you previously said.I have never heard of a case where insurance has been invalidated due to lack of MOT. I can imagine in exceptional circumstances, where the car is found to be in a very poor state of repair then it might happen, but I'm pretty certain they wouldn't invalidate it in the situation you describe. Otherwise, everybody who's pulled over for MOT would also be getting 6 points for no insurance, and that never happens unless there is another reason why they're uninsured.
You also say driving without an MOT is 3-6 points, which it isn't - it's 0 points and a £100 fine.
I'm also completely confused as to why you say this:
"Here's the real sting in the tail. If your vehicle is on a public road and involved in any kind of collision it will be your fault. Even if it's parked and a drink driver going three times the speed limit whilst being pursued by the Police rams into it. The collision will be your fault for having an uninsured, non-M.O.T's vehicle on a public road. Then as the vehicle is not insured the Motor Insurance Bureau will have to pay up instead. You will have to pay them back. Total loss of the second vehicle and injuries sustained can mean for the sake of a stamp (to tell the DVLA about the engine swap) and possibly a little higher tax (if there's a change of capacity and CO2 rating) you could be facing up to a millions Pounds of debt. "
I'm going to go as far as to say that that situation simply would not happen. If a drink driver smashes into your car whilst it's parked up, even if it does have a dodgy MOT due to an engine swap, the police would not comb through your car checking every small detail, then say that the accident was actually your fault because your MOT and insurance isn't valid, and pardon the drink driver. In fact, when I was involved in an accident the police and insurance company didn't even come to look at the cars, let alone check engine numbers and MOT.
There are simply thousands of these cars around: in fact, I can't think of anyone I know who has done an engine swap and declared it to the DVLA: they simply declare it to their insurance. If the situation was as you describe, there'd be court cases all over the place and I can't think of a single example when that's happened.
I'm all for punishing the "1.0 on logbook so cheap insurance innit" types, but people who have done an engine swap and declared it to their insurance are simply a non issue IMO. I'd be interested to see the reaction you'd get if you went to a PH meet and started checking the registrations of people's cars - I suspect you'd find the vast majority of cars with new engines have not been declared to the DVLA.
You also say driving without an MOT is 3-6 points, which it isn't - it's 0 points and a £100 fine.
I'm also completely confused as to why you say this:
"Here's the real sting in the tail. If your vehicle is on a public road and involved in any kind of collision it will be your fault. Even if it's parked and a drink driver going three times the speed limit whilst being pursued by the Police rams into it. The collision will be your fault for having an uninsured, non-M.O.T's vehicle on a public road. Then as the vehicle is not insured the Motor Insurance Bureau will have to pay up instead. You will have to pay them back. Total loss of the second vehicle and injuries sustained can mean for the sake of a stamp (to tell the DVLA about the engine swap) and possibly a little higher tax (if there's a change of capacity and CO2 rating) you could be facing up to a millions Pounds of debt. "
I'm going to go as far as to say that that situation simply would not happen. If a drink driver smashes into your car whilst it's parked up, even if it does have a dodgy MOT due to an engine swap, the police would not comb through your car checking every small detail, then say that the accident was actually your fault because your MOT and insurance isn't valid, and pardon the drink driver. In fact, when I was involved in an accident the police and insurance company didn't even come to look at the cars, let alone check engine numbers and MOT.
There are simply thousands of these cars around: in fact, I can't think of anyone I know who has done an engine swap and declared it to the DVLA: they simply declare it to their insurance. If the situation was as you describe, there'd be court cases all over the place and I can't think of a single example when that's happened.
I'm all for punishing the "1.0 on logbook so cheap insurance innit" types, but people who have done an engine swap and declared it to their insurance are simply a non issue IMO. I'd be interested to see the reaction you'd get if you went to a PH meet and started checking the registrations of people's cars - I suspect you'd find the vast majority of cars with new engines have not been declared to the DVLA.
Smiley from the Honda forum said:
Had a car with alloys and a stainless exhaust.
Got pulled.
Copper asked if mods declared.
I said yes, he said he'd check as didn't believe me.
Got letter from cis, saying that they had not been made aware that my car has mods, and as I didn't meet the criteria they cover for modded cars, my insurance was voided.
Received court summons for driving with out insurance.
Got found guilty.
My punishment.
9month ban
6points
£360 fine
Woohoo. When I returned, my insurance quote had gone up 5times, and stayed like that till my points vanished.
Cost me about 6grand in total for not declaring mods.
Now I declare every f
king mod. They even know I've just changed my gearknob. Lol.
If the Police have any reason to suspect the vehicle as been altered...Got pulled.
Copper asked if mods declared.
I said yes, he said he'd check as didn't believe me.
Got letter from cis, saying that they had not been made aware that my car has mods, and as I didn't meet the criteria they cover for modded cars, my insurance was voided.
Received court summons for driving with out insurance.
Got found guilty.
My punishment.
9month ban
6points
£360 fine
Woohoo. When I returned, my insurance quote had gone up 5times, and stayed like that till my points vanished.
Cost me about 6grand in total for not declaring mods.
Now I declare every f
king mod. They even know I've just changed my gearknob. Lol. For example; if a 1.0 Corsa takes off from the lights like it's been fired out of a cannon.
...they will pull you over, they will go through every detail with a fine toothed comb, they will check the engine number against the one on the log book (or DVLA database), they will phone your insurance provider, they will tow and impound your vehicle if any discrepancy is detected, you will be arrested and the CPS will prosecute if your vehicle is not legitimate.
Then you will get points and/or a fine and your insurance will be ridiculous for the next five years.
The £100 fpn for no M.O.T is new I was going by the old laws. Thanks for the heads up.
I'd double check with your insurer as without an M.O.T they will not cover you unless you are driving to a pre-booked M.O.T test as stated before. Some insurers will say no you are not insured and some will say if you try to make a claim and there is no valid M.O.T they will not honor it. This covers simple lapses in M.O.T's people forget and those who are deliberately driving without an M.O.T (even though the chances them driving with insurance is questionable in the first place). Always check the small print on your policy documents and certificate. An M.O.T is a statement of the vehicles condition the day of the test. Three hundred and sixty four days later that may not be the case and any claim will be based on an independent assessment. If your M.O.T has lapsed and you are involved in a collision the general roadworthness of the vehicle may be taken into account but the lack of an M.O.T will make any collision and subsequent claim or claims your fault by default.
If in my scenario your vehicle is parked on a public road and someone drives into it the collision will be your fault.
The M.O.T is based on the information provided on the V5C; if this information is incorrect due to the owner failing to declare an engine swap (new engine number) and/or change in engine capacity the M.O.T will not be valid.
Your argument that the Police probably wouldn't follow it up depends on the driver that hit your vehicle, how well they are insured, how good their legal cover is and how much pressure this places on the investigating officers. It's a simple matter of time and space. If the vehicle owner was a law abiding citizen the car would either be properly registered, M.O.T'd, insured and taxed or it would be kept off the road. If it were to be kept off the road it would not have been where it was when the collision occurred: therefore the collision would not have happened. People will do anything to absolve themselves from blame and the fact the vehicle they collided into should not have been there in the first place is more than enough for anyone to point the finger away from them including the CPS. The investigation will cost the Tax payers money and the CPS will pursue the owner of the illegitimate vehicle as a matter of public interest.
A drink driver in my village got away with a collision because the car he hit had no M.O.T
He was still done for drink driving, but the owner of the car he hit was done for no M.O.T
That's an entirely different situation though. I completely agree with you that not declaring an engine swap/mods to your INSURANCE can easily land you in trouble, I'm talking about the DVLA.
I also don't dispute that some insurers may well say in their documentation that a car must have an MOT to be covered. I'm saying that a car with an engine swap and a current MOT, provided the engine swap is declared to insurance, will not cause you any trouble in the event of a claim. I have not seen any evidence of anyone having problems in this situation, unless you know of some?
You say that a drink driver hit a car with no MOT in your village, and was done for drink driving. That would seem to suggest there was blame apportioned to him. The fact that the car he hit had no MOT was obviously followed up as well, I'd imagine with a £100 fine which is obviously a far less serious punishment than a drink driving ban. I'd also guess (correct me if I'm wrong) that the car's MOT had lapsed, which was why it flagged up. A car with an engine swap with a current MOT would not have flagged up at all, therefore there would have been no need for further investigation.
I don't want to turn this into a massive argument, but you seem to be just glossing over the areas where you're completely wrong, and then making points which, whilst often true, are completely unrelated to what we're talking about. I'm referring to a situation where you declare an engine swap to your insurance but not the DVLA, and have a current (if technically "dodgy") MOT. My opinion is NOT that it is 100% legal, but instead that you will not find yourself in any trouble at all if you do that, and the experience of everyone I know / have heard of would seem to support that. The fact that major tuning companies often don't bother declaring the swap to the DVLA would also suggest that it's a non-issue provided insurance companies are made aware.
(For the record, both of my cars have their original engines and are insured as such)
I also don't dispute that some insurers may well say in their documentation that a car must have an MOT to be covered. I'm saying that a car with an engine swap and a current MOT, provided the engine swap is declared to insurance, will not cause you any trouble in the event of a claim. I have not seen any evidence of anyone having problems in this situation, unless you know of some?
You say that a drink driver hit a car with no MOT in your village, and was done for drink driving. That would seem to suggest there was blame apportioned to him. The fact that the car he hit had no MOT was obviously followed up as well, I'd imagine with a £100 fine which is obviously a far less serious punishment than a drink driving ban. I'd also guess (correct me if I'm wrong) that the car's MOT had lapsed, which was why it flagged up. A car with an engine swap with a current MOT would not have flagged up at all, therefore there would have been no need for further investigation.
I don't want to turn this into a massive argument, but you seem to be just glossing over the areas where you're completely wrong, and then making points which, whilst often true, are completely unrelated to what we're talking about. I'm referring to a situation where you declare an engine swap to your insurance but not the DVLA, and have a current (if technically "dodgy") MOT. My opinion is NOT that it is 100% legal, but instead that you will not find yourself in any trouble at all if you do that, and the experience of everyone I know / have heard of would seem to support that. The fact that major tuning companies often don't bother declaring the swap to the DVLA would also suggest that it's a non-issue provided insurance companies are made aware.
(For the record, both of my cars have their original engines and are insured as such)
Liquid Knight said:
Change of capacity would invalidate the M.O.T. As you will be driving without an M.O.T (three to six points by itself) your insurance will not be valid either as the vehicle has to be M.O.T'd to be insured (another six points on your licence) unless you are driving to a pre-booked test appointment.
If you declared the engine change to the M.O.T tester and the numbers do not match the V5C then the vehicle will not pass the test until the changes to the documentation are made. If the vehicle is allowed through the test and certificate issued the M.O.T station is highly likely to be audited by VOSA if the vehicle is involved in any kind of incident (VOSA can issue penalties of up to £10,000 per discrepancy following an audit and a few less legitimate M.O.T centers have closed and owners declared bankrupt as a result. The chances of them risking this is minimal). If your vehicle is involved in an incident the M.O.T will be invalidated by a Police or VOSA vehicle inspector, the insurance will then be invalidated by default and you go back to square one, but because it has taken more effort for the Police to establish the facts. In this hypothetical case your vehicle with an undeclared engine swap and change of capacity is involved in an incident. The CPS will try to get back as much of the investigation cost as possible and throw the book at you in court insisting the maximum penalties be awarded. So expect at least £2000 in fines as well as twelve points and therefore a ban.
Here's the real sting in the tail. If your vehicle is on a public road and involved in any kind of collision it will be your fault. Even if it's parked and a drink driver going three times the speed limit whilst being pursued by the Police rams into it. The collision will be your fault for having an uninsured, non-M.O.T's vehicle on a public road. Then as the vehicle is not insured the Motor Insurance Bureau will have to pay up instead. You will have to pay them back. Total loss of the second vehicle and injuries sustained can mean for the sake of a stamp (to tell the DVLA about the engine swap) and possibly a little higher tax (if there's a change of capacity and CO2 rating) you could be facing up to a millions Pounds of debt.
I hope that answers your question. If you declare an engine swap to your insurers without declaring it to the DVLA you vehicle will not have a valid M.O.T and therefore will not be insured.
And there will be plagues of locusts, the angel of death will slaughter your first born and stormtroopers will break down your door at 2 am to take your family away. Seriously? I know you don't like it but peddling such malicious misinformation is verging on an intention to mislead. If you declared the engine change to the M.O.T tester and the numbers do not match the V5C then the vehicle will not pass the test until the changes to the documentation are made. If the vehicle is allowed through the test and certificate issued the M.O.T station is highly likely to be audited by VOSA if the vehicle is involved in any kind of incident (VOSA can issue penalties of up to £10,000 per discrepancy following an audit and a few less legitimate M.O.T centers have closed and owners declared bankrupt as a result. The chances of them risking this is minimal). If your vehicle is involved in an incident the M.O.T will be invalidated by a Police or VOSA vehicle inspector, the insurance will then be invalidated by default and you go back to square one, but because it has taken more effort for the Police to establish the facts. In this hypothetical case your vehicle with an undeclared engine swap and change of capacity is involved in an incident. The CPS will try to get back as much of the investigation cost as possible and throw the book at you in court insisting the maximum penalties be awarded. So expect at least £2000 in fines as well as twelve points and therefore a ban.
Here's the real sting in the tail. If your vehicle is on a public road and involved in any kind of collision it will be your fault. Even if it's parked and a drink driver going three times the speed limit whilst being pursued by the Police rams into it. The collision will be your fault for having an uninsured, non-M.O.T's vehicle on a public road. Then as the vehicle is not insured the Motor Insurance Bureau will have to pay up instead. You will have to pay them back. Total loss of the second vehicle and injuries sustained can mean for the sake of a stamp (to tell the DVLA about the engine swap) and possibly a little higher tax (if there's a change of capacity and CO2 rating) you could be facing up to a millions Pounds of debt.
I hope that answers your question. If you declare an engine swap to your insurers without declaring it to the DVLA you vehicle will not have a valid M.O.T and therefore will not be insured.
Firstly not having an MOT does not carry endorsement. It is dealt with via the fixed penalty system, so you get a fine.
Secondly driving without an MOT does not invalidate your insurance.
Thirdly 'if your vehicle is involved in a collision that's not your fault, then it's your fault because I said so' - WTF???!???!? You've amalgamated a number of non-related offences and created one that doesn't exist. The only such legislation covers aggravated TWOC. Whereby if a car taken without its owner's consent is involved in an accident it's automatically down to the TWOC-er. Even if it's not his or her fault. This doesn't apply to a stationary car with an undeclared big engine.
Finally the MOT test covers the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN). If a car is made post 1980 then it must be securely fixed somewhere and legible. The engine number is not tested.
How do I know? Well my friend, being a naughty Meerkat, may well have owned cars in such a state and put them through MOT tests with the swap not on the logbook! It happens. The MOT tests for roadworthiness, nothing more.
There are offences of using a vehicle in a dangerous condition, but if it's not then no-one cares that much.
Obviously there's the heinous issue of tax evasion, but even then it's nothing chronic on a car in the old tax bands.
From my other thread...
RochdaleGT said:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TXTRIPPER-1-400-twin-wee...
locost with tx tripper v5c
tripper was a triumph based beach buggy...
Still an 1174cc (Triumph Herald) engine on the log book. locost with tx tripper v5c
tripper was a triumph based beach buggy...
Liquid Knight said:
From my other thread...
I have some vary vague recollections of this being a glass fibre body kit car from many years ago. However if this car is not registered as a TXTripper then actually getting it on the road and MOT'd would seem a big challenge to me. Personally I would avoid the car. Am I missing something? The frm shown is nothing like the cari remember vaguely. But others may take a different view. RochdaleGT said:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TXTRIPPER-1-400-twin-wee...
locost with tx tripper v5c
tripper was a triumph based beach buggy...
Still an 1174cc (Triumph Herald) engine on the log book. locost with tx tripper v5c
tripper was a triumph based beach buggy...
I am a self employed time serviced and fully certificated mechanic. Just last week I swapped the engine in my 2005 1.8 VX Vectra for an identical 18xe engine from a 2004 Vectra which I accquired from an itinerant motor/scrap dealer, I know the reg n.o., vin n.o. and engine number from the donor car but do not have a V5C or any paperwork for it, I had intended to fiil in the V5C for the 2005 car with the replacement engine n.o. and send to DVLA but reading this thread it looks like I might be opening a can of worms and should just keep quiet about it.
You shouldn't have any issues with that.
I did a like for like engine swap after knackering an engine in my kit car and just sent the v5 off with the numbers changed, a copy of the invoice for the new engine and a brief note stating what I had done. Got it back fairly promptly with no dramas.
Edit: just rerelead the part about no paperwork, a simple invoice should be sufficient if you have one or can get hold of one. Depends on the definition of 'acquired'', I imagine,
I did a like for like engine swap after knackering an engine in my kit car and just sent the v5 off with the numbers changed, a copy of the invoice for the new engine and a brief note stating what I had done. Got it back fairly promptly with no dramas.
Edit: just rerelead the part about no paperwork, a simple invoice should be sufficient if you have one or can get hold of one. Depends on the definition of 'acquired'', I imagine,
Edited by OliilO on Sunday 28th December 23:26
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