Re:- Ringside Seat : to cage or not to cage?
Discussion
In an open car such as the Caterfields (sorry), I would be more inclined to ask why you would not cage them. I think Adenauer has it spot on - if you are planning to make a commitment to racing then surely this has to be one of the first (and arguably most important) mods you could make to a committed track car. The more you race, the more likely you are to have a crash and the faster you become, the closer you get to the boundaries of car and competence, the larger and more kinetic those crashes are likely to be.
Lordbenny said:
How many people with after market cages in their tin-tops tell their insurance companies because getting cover on a road car is VERY hard in my experience!
This is my question. Added to the almost impossibility of UK drivers getting genuinely valid cover for Tourist days on the Ring. Or is it easier if the car is in Germany?
>C
mat777 said:
For everyone saying a cage = helmet on the road in case of head/cage interface in a bump - what's wrong with wrapping the cage in foam padding/pipe insulation?
That stuff compresses far too easily and although it might provide a little protection from bumping your head getting in and out, as soon as larger crash forces (for want of a better phrase) are encountered, they do next to nothing to protect your head. FIA/MSA has developed it's own extruded roll cage padding sections which are designed to protect your head when you're wearing a helmet, but it is very hard indeed and you wouldn't want to be headbutting it without a helmet on. Plus it's about £40/meter.
I have fitted a full cage in my E30,I use the car every day.
The cage has made the shell stronger in torsional stiffness, Would most likely be stronger in most road accidents, but i also have deep/low set, bucket seats & Full 6 point belts(std 3 point belts removed). So with the belts holding me down tight in the seat, i have less chance of head butting the cage, I have also made sure that the roll hoop is mounted behind my seats (no chance of head contact).
I didn't add a roof diagonal bar, so as to limit risk of head contact. It's all about getting the compromise right imho. I have seen many cages fitted to road cars, that are killers at low speeds for those not wearing head gear, it's scary & amazing how much the body moves around a crashing car.(even with 6 point belts, as they are designed to stretch and lessen the deceleration forces)
Cages need to be fitted correctly as do multy point belts, so as not to do more damage than good.
The cage has made the shell stronger in torsional stiffness, Would most likely be stronger in most road accidents, but i also have deep/low set, bucket seats & Full 6 point belts(std 3 point belts removed). So with the belts holding me down tight in the seat, i have less chance of head butting the cage, I have also made sure that the roll hoop is mounted behind my seats (no chance of head contact).
I didn't add a roof diagonal bar, so as to limit risk of head contact. It's all about getting the compromise right imho. I have seen many cages fitted to road cars, that are killers at low speeds for those not wearing head gear, it's scary & amazing how much the body moves around a crashing car.(even with 6 point belts, as they are designed to stretch and lessen the deceleration forces)
Cages need to be fitted correctly as do multy point belts, so as not to do more damage than good.
The Wookie said:
I think a half cage is probably a good compromise. Full cages aren't really advisable if you're going to drive it on the road without a lid on.
It'll still be safer in a roll over crash on the road, of course, but without a helmet it might be a lot more dangerous in a (far more common) minor shunt.
Indeed. Unless you're quite short, a cage is often a great way of braining one's self in a side impact.It'll still be safer in a roll over crash on the road, of course, but without a helmet it might be a lot more dangerous in a (far more common) minor shunt.
On an E36 it's a no brainer. Cage it and bolt the seat to the floor so you feel like a 90s touring car legend
HustleRussell said:
That stuff compresses far too easily and although it might provide a little protection from bumping your head getting in and out, as soon as larger crash forces (for want of a better phrase) are encountered, they do next to nothing to protect your head.
FIA/MSA has developed it's own extruded roll cage padding sections which are designed to protect your head when you're wearing a helmet, but it is very hard indeed and you wouldn't want to be headbutting it without a helmet on. Plus it's about £40/meter.
FIA/MSA has developed it's own extruded roll cage padding sections which are designed to protect your head when you're wearing a helmet, but it is very hard indeed and you wouldn't want to be headbutting it without a helmet on. Plus it's about £40/meter.
You wouldn't wrap a steel tube up with 1-2" of padding then headbutt it!Cemesis said:
Whilst it seems obvious to increase the level of saftey in the car and I completley agree and understand the logic and reason behind it, I find that a helmet disconnects me from the car. Its almost like sensory deprevation; I cannot hear as well, I cannot catch things as quickly out of my peripheral vision and I'm tall enough that I need to hunch down in the seat which feels un-natural and risks robbing me of concentration.
I can simplify it quite easily. You are more likely to survive a crash with a helmet and a roll cage and more likely to have a crash if you are wearing a helmet, since you cannot really fit a cage and not wear a helmet.
How do you weigh those up? I guess as others have said, it depends on the car. For an open top Caterham I'd want a cage and accept the deprevation. In an E39 M5 with 10 airbags, I chose not to.
I suggest you invest in a half descent helmet and one that fits ocrrectly.I can simplify it quite easily. You are more likely to survive a crash with a helmet and a roll cage and more likely to have a crash if you are wearing a helmet, since you cannot really fit a cage and not wear a helmet.
How do you weigh those up? I guess as others have said, it depends on the car. For an open top Caterham I'd want a cage and accept the deprevation. In an E39 M5 with 10 airbags, I chose not to.
How a helmet affects your peripheral vision is beyond me, i use a Bell open face, fits perfectly and allows me perfect vision. Hearing is not affected massively oh and as you have a BMW unless you are 7ft 10 you should have plenty of room to drop the seat fully. BMW's are one of the best cars for low driver psoitions and i had no problems in my old 130i and i'm 6ft 4.
its your choice of course, but if they day ever comes and you are rolling for a split second you'll remember this thread.....lol
Also without a helmet you'll never get Pax laps in the real fast stuff. it still amazes me that the Ring taxi is allowed to operate without helmets (but then they aren't that fast anymore)
Edited by Antj on Friday 19th October 15:21
Personally, I'd always prefer to have a cage track, as at the 'Ring, I'd think twice about driving properly on limit without one. Remember that many of the cars in Industry pool that don't have them are probably doing Powertrain work where they're not looking for laptime or corner speed. Most of the dynamics cars will have cages in.
Full cage doesnt just protect against rollovers - Chap on locostbuilders had a front wheel on his indy break off in a smash and it was coming right for his head until it was deflected by the front nearside cage upright.
Wasn't that goodwood caterham fatality earlier in the year as a result of not having a cage to protect the driver when it hit the tyre wall?
Wasn't that goodwood caterham fatality earlier in the year as a result of not having a cage to protect the driver when it hit the tyre wall?
dont forget if your fitting any cage it really should be certified as safe.. Backyard cages although very nice... How many have been stress tested etc?
Road cars are not certified anywhere near as strong as a proper cage...
Lotus 7 style cars with no screen or with one are also vulnerable to accidents where you could hit deer, large animal etc where the creature goes over the bodywork into the head of the persons on board.. A cage gives very slight bit more protection
Road cars are not certified anywhere near as strong as a proper cage...
Lotus 7 style cars with no screen or with one are also vulnerable to accidents where you could hit deer, large animal etc where the creature goes over the bodywork into the head of the persons on board.. A cage gives very slight bit more protection
my GT3 clubbie came with a full cage, welded in (the front section is apparently removable)
Given my seating position, I can hit my head on the section of metal from A to B pillar without the cage in - what's going to be different with the cage in if I roll ?
I've seen an A pillar bend in front of my very eyes when my 997 kissed a tree;
Knowing that the cage would prevent anything but minor deformation of the passenger cell means I'll be leaving mine fitted. For road and track use, with and without helmet.
it's a risk I'm willing to take.
Given my seating position, I can hit my head on the section of metal from A to B pillar without the cage in - what's going to be different with the cage in if I roll ?
I've seen an A pillar bend in front of my very eyes when my 997 kissed a tree;
Knowing that the cage would prevent anything but minor deformation of the passenger cell means I'll be leaving mine fitted. For road and track use, with and without helmet.
it's a risk I'm willing to take.
for a day than look like a vegetable foreverAfter seeing this crash it does make you question the idea of safety.
Honda CRV Rollover Crash in The Nürburgring!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpW7DEI2ISI
Honda CRV Rollover Crash in The Nürburgring!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpW7DEI2ISI
BBS-LM said:
After seeing this crash it does make you question the idea of safety.
Honda CRV Rollover Crash in The Nürburgring!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpW7DEI2ISI
OUCH! Honda CRV Rollover Crash in The Nürburgring!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpW7DEI2ISI
red997 said:
Given my seating position, I can hit my head on the section of metal from A to B pillar without the cage in - what's going to be different with the cage in if I roll ?
Your seatbelt pretensioner will fire and your neck will need to stretch an extra 2-3 inches before your head hits something without the cage in place. Unless upwards of 6'6" you ought to be okay in harnesses or once that kicks in. I know a bit about the pretensioner... I've had the CSI bruise of shame and the system is astonishingly effective in a 996... 
The only time I'll fit a cage to my car is if it runs a 1/4 quicker than 11.99seconds because it is then mandatory by MSA/IOPD rules. It will never go that fast because I would never spend that much money on it (would be cheaper to buy a used Pro ET car than mod mine to go that fast.
Seems like an odd question to me really, given that Dale lives at the ring and the car is no doubt going to be driven at 100% around the 'ring on a regular basis, and Karl, and many many others would most likely no longer be here without a cage. Seriously, why would you not put a cage in a dedicated track car. There is absolutely no way on this planet I would drive flat out around the 'ring or any other circuit without a full roll cage, harnesses, helmet etc. There are too many uncontrollable variables such as oil, idiots, mechanical failure etc to take the risk.
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