RE: Subaru prepping BRZ Turbo?
Discussion
stuart-b said:
...It won't happen - I will eat my hat if Subaru can come up with a 2.5 NA engine with 230-250 bhp for this car.
I bet Toyota (Yamaha) could, though.Given that 100bhp/litre (from a peaky single cylinder race engine, admittedly) was reached over 70 years ago, surely the same figure from a flat-four should be easy with 21st century technology, even with the need to meet emissions regulations.
bicycleshorts said:
RX7 said:
bicycleshorts said:
At the risk of lag
Is this a default phrase when trying to slate turbos?? With a good modern turbo lag would be negligible anyway and if you have lag, its really easy, change gear!!Are you mistaking boost threshold for lag?
I am referring to peoples ridiculous default comments about turbos and lag. Lag is no different to being out of the peak rev range in any car, what do people say when your not on vtec in a Honda, its no real different! If your lazy and want loads of torque to pull you out of being in the wrong gear, buy a v8!
From what i have read about the 86/brz, one of thing that is heralded about them is the buzzy, high revving engine, so your going to have to change gear to be in the optimum rev range, absolutely no different to a turbo!
BILL PAYER said:
Very Popular car. i seem to recall having seen the grand total of one Toyota badged version so far.
Seen 3 here. But not surprising we're not seeing loads given they're holding back the numbers. There's only 116 manual and 45 auto's currently taxed according to howmanyleft.co.uk.RX7 said:
bicycleshorts said:
RX7 said:
bicycleshorts said:
At the risk of lag
Is this a default phrase when trying to slate turbos?? With a good modern turbo lag would be negligible anyway and if you have lag, its really easy, change gear!!Are you mistaking boost threshold for lag?
I am referring to peoples ridiculous default comments about turbos and lag. Lag is no different to being out of the peak rev range in any car, what do people say when your not on vtec in a Honda, its no real different! If your lazy and want loads of torque to pull you out of being in the wrong gear, buy a v8!
From what i have read about the 86/brz, one of thing that is heralded about them is the buzzy, high revving engine, so your going to have to change gear to be in the optimum rev range, absolutely no different to a turbo!
LordGrover said:
Marf said:
Seen 3 here. But not surprising we're not seeing loads given they're holding back the numbers. There's only 116 manual and 45 auto's currently taxed according to howmanyleft.co.uk.
Erm... click.Okay, not exactly flying off the shelves, but not quite as bad as suggested.
bicycleshorts said:
Again, you're confusing boost threshold with lag.
Some people seem to be completely oblivious to lag. I've even seen people claim the engine in my Saab aero doesn't have any!Don't mind it so much in the barge, for me it it would completely ruin anything sporting. Horrible.
bicycleshorts said:
Again, you're confusing boost threshold with lag.
Errr No, you are discussing boost threshold and throttle response, i am referring to lag.Whichever way, it makes no difference now, the purists can have their 86/brz na as they think Toyota/Subaru intended and the for all the others, we hopefully will get the car we think it always should have been.
It seems wrc drivers seem to cope fine with throttle response and what about the poor F1 drivers going back to turbo engines, i wonder how they will get on with lag, boost threshold and throttle response.....;)
RX7 said:
Errr No, you are discussing boost threshold and throttle response, i am referring to lag.
Whichever way, it makes no difference now, the purists can have their 86/brz na as they think Toyota/Subaru intended and the for all the others, we hopefully will get the car we think it always should have been.
It seems wrc drivers seem to cope fine with throttle response and what about the poor F1 drivers going back to turbo engines, i wonder how they will get on with lag, boost threshold and throttle response.....;)
Lag is when you put your foot down within the powerband of the engine and there is a short delay while boost builds before you get the amount of torque you ordered. Being under the boost threshold means being in too high a gear such that when you put your foot down, nothing much happens at all until the engine has gained enough revs.Whichever way, it makes no difference now, the purists can have their 86/brz na as they think Toyota/Subaru intended and the for all the others, we hopefully will get the car we think it always should have been.
It seems wrc drivers seem to cope fine with throttle response and what about the poor F1 drivers going back to turbo engines, i wonder how they will get on with lag, boost threshold and throttle response.....;)
Racing drivers don't care whether a car is nice to drive, they only care that it is fast. Some road drivers, it would seem, are the same.
Care to read the Autocar 2012 best drivers car anyone (albeit with the standard torque/bhp comments 
)?
I stand by my earlier comments, no more power 'needed'. If you want some, then fine, but the balance of the out of the box package is just fine (for me) thanks
)?I stand by my earlier comments, no more power 'needed'. If you want some, then fine, but the balance of the out of the box package is just fine (for me) thanks
Edited by Stig on Thursday 25th October 09:48
RX7 said:
bicycleshorts said:
Again, you're confusing boost threshold with lag.
Errr No, you are discussing boost threshold and throttle response, i am referring to lag.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger#Turbo_la...
(Please read this before coming back and posting)
The only way to get around lag is to keep the turbo spinning with some form of anti-lag. Unfortunately that normally means throwing fuel down the hot exhaust, which AFAIK then causes the turbo and exhaust to heat up beyond normally operating temperature.
Even a supercharger will have lag unless it's twin throttle bodied. That makes it more difficult to control on the limit as you have to take into consideration the delay in boost coming in. I drove a NA and a Supercharged MX5 at the weekend back to back and it was fairly obvious which was more controllable on the limit.
I'm starting to think otolith is speaking the truth if people think Turbo cars don't have poor throttle response.
As for your last line: WRC drivers have anti-lag. I can't begin to imagine how the F1 Turbos will be designed, but I would imagine reducing lag will be a bit consideration for them, boost threshold won't be because they'll always be above the lower RPM limit.
kambites said:
AFAIK, the reason you never see proper anti-lag systems on road cars is that they can't pass modern emissions tests.
Fair enough. Only briefly looked at it for the Impreza before deciding it would probably end up being hellishly expensive in one way or another 
ETA: Interesting to note that they're already talking about how to keep the Turbo spinning to reduce lag in the F1 engines. Here: http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
Edited by bicycleshorts on Thursday 25th October 12:00
bicycleshorts said:
Lag = throttle response. Boost threshold = RPM required for full boost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger#Turbo_la...
(Please read this before coming back and posting)
The only way to get around lag is to keep the turbo spinning with some form of anti-lag. Unfortunately that normally means throwing fuel down the hot exhaust, which AFAIK then causes the turbo and exhaust to heat up beyond normally operating temperature.
Even a supercharger will have lag unless it's twin throttle bodied. That makes it more difficult to control on the limit as you have to take into consideration the delay in boost coming in. I drove a NA and a Supercharged MX5 at the weekend back to back and it was fairly obvious which was more controllable on the limit.
I'm starting to think otolith is speaking the truth if people think Turbo cars don't have poor throttle response.
As for your last line: WRC drivers have anti-lag. I can't begin to imagine how the F1 Turbos will be designed, but I would imagine reducing lag will be a bit consideration for them, boost threshold won't be because they'll always be above the lower RPM limit.
I think you should actually read it yourself if you going to quote wikipedia, like its the font af all knowledge anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger#Turbo_la...
(Please read this before coming back and posting)
The only way to get around lag is to keep the turbo spinning with some form of anti-lag. Unfortunately that normally means throwing fuel down the hot exhaust, which AFAIK then causes the turbo and exhaust to heat up beyond normally operating temperature.
Even a supercharger will have lag unless it's twin throttle bodied. That makes it more difficult to control on the limit as you have to take into consideration the delay in boost coming in. I drove a NA and a Supercharged MX5 at the weekend back to back and it was fairly obvious which was more controllable on the limit.
I'm starting to think otolith is speaking the truth if people think Turbo cars don't have poor throttle response.
As for your last line: WRC drivers have anti-lag. I can't begin to imagine how the F1 Turbos will be designed, but I would imagine reducing lag will be a bit consideration for them, boost threshold won't be because they'll always be above the lower RPM limit.
quoting from your beloved wiki in relation to lag
"Superchargers do not suffer this problem, because the turbine is eliminated due to the compressor being directly powered by the engine."
Probably the less said the better, as if your actually referring wikipedia as your point of credibility, this is a pointless discussion. Lag in the real world is the lack of spool up due to rpm levels
I am happy with my turbo cars throttle response, not as crisp or accurate as n/a of course and if i wanted to run antilag, my ecu that wasnt costly is more than capable of that, perhaps you shouldnt believe all you read and gain your knowledge from experimentation and real world experience, rather than wikipedia!!
As said before, we all have the choice now (hopefully), so no point discussing whether people think it should be n/a or turbo
Time and time again I drive a new turbocharged engine whose fans swear "responds like a N/A", and time and time again I'm left wondering if they even know what the term "throttle response" means. I can fully understand why someone would like the feel of a turbo, but short of some dramatic change in the technology, I would never want one in anything that I intended to drive enthusiastically. I also actively dislike having peak torque low down the rev range, or rather I dislike having torque dropping off higher up the rev range.
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