RE: Driven: Camaro 45th Anniversary edition

[300bhp/ton]

aww999 said:

300bhp/ton said:

I think this must be more a state of mind as I rarely in any car be it RHD or LHD feel the need to drive like a tit weaving in and out of traffic and overtaking.

Overtaking = driving like a tit? Fine, sit there behind Mrs Miggins all day in your V8 sportscar . . .

Overtaking all the time = driving like a tit as you evidently aren't driving to the road conditions.

Overtaking occasionally is fine, however from above "Given that I get held up every 200ft by a dawdler when I'm driving" this reeks of impatience and unsuitable driving.

[B10]

I am correct in that it is made in Canada and is based upon the Ozzy Holden Monaro?

[aww999]

300bhp/ton said:

aww999 said:

300bhp/ton said:

I think this must be more a state of mind as I rarely in any car be it RHD or LHD feel the need to drive like a tit weaving in and out of traffic and overtaking.

Overtaking = driving like a tit? Fine, sit there behind Mrs Miggins all day in your V8 sportscar . . .

Overtaking all the time = driving like a tit as you evidently aren't driving to the road conditions.

Overtaking occasionally is fine, however from above "Given that I get held up every 200ft by a dawdler when I'm driving" this reeks of impatience and unsuitable driving.

If impatience means wanting to drive faster than 38mph on nice open a and b-roads then yes, I am impatient. If you believe that overtaking more than two cars a month is unsuitable driving then I can't help but wonder why you want a V8, or even if you are on the right website. I've just been out to get milk and bread from Tesco and overtaken eight cars in four miles. They were all travelling at about half the speed limit, overtaking them is no hassle, and no one's in any danger as a result. Why on earth would I choose to sit behind them when I don't have to?

[aww999]

Two groups of three cars, one pair of cars, each group travelling at <40mph on a straight bit of B-road. All easy passes, even with my pint-sized four litre; I would have far more fun thundering past people in a 6.2 but apparently I should just sit behind them, admiring the beautiful rear end of whatever boring silver Korean box they choose to travel in.

I don't know where you guys live, but around here the majority of drivers either don't notice or understand the NSL signs, or are happy to crawl along in 40mph convoys. Sod that!

[E38Ross]

hang on....all the American car fans on here had me believing that European cars were all fat and heavy....this weighs over 100kgs more than a "lardy" German sports saloon.

Also....having done it, an E92 M3 will trundle along at 30mph in 6th too. in fact, i've just had a look at the torque curves, assuming both cars 6th gears are geared to 200mph....at 30-40mph neither car will be quicker than the other from those speeds (well, the lower weight of the M3 may help it)

used these graphs

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007...

http://www.acadiaforum.net/temp/camaro/HP_Curves.g...

[Cyrus1971]

jamesson said:

Cyrus1971 said:

Looks nice and good value in the US, but that engine has low for power from the displacement. 5 years ago Mercedes were getting 450+ bhp and over 500 Ft lb or torque from the C63 AMG engine.

I don't understand why people have a thing about bhp/litre. Does it matter how big the engine is relative to its power output? It's not underpowered in the slightest and personally I'd rather have an unstressed large displacement engine than something which has been tuned to within an inch of its life.

That is a fair question. For me it is about the quality of the engineering, the sophistication of thought, the materials and sheer engineering clout that woes me to a smaller displacement and high output. There is something lazy and basic about displacement as a method for increasing power or torque. The technical challenge it placed on the people who made it.

[Paul_M3]

E38Ross said:

hang on....all the American car fans on here had me believing that European cars were all fat and heavy....this weighs over 100kgs more than a "lardy" German sports saloon.

Also....having done it, an E92 M3 will trundle along at 30mph in 6th too. in fact, i've just had a look at the torque curves, assuming both cars 6th gears are geared to 200mph....at 30-40mph neither car will be quicker than the other from those speeds (well, the lower weight of the M3 may help it)

used these graphs

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007...

http://www.acadiaforum.net/temp/camaro/HP_Curves.g...

Forgive me if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, but you do realise the M3 graph is in Nm and the LS engine one is in lb-ft?

The LS engine's peak torque is over 550Nm, and the M3's goes along at around 400Nm.

[E38Ross]

Paul_M3 said:

E38Ross said:

hang on....all the American car fans on here had me believing that European cars were all fat and heavy....this weighs over 100kgs more than a "lardy" German sports saloon.

Also....having done it, an E92 M3 will trundle along at 30mph in 6th too. in fact, i've just had a look at the torque curves, assuming both cars 6th gears are geared to 200mph....at 30-40mph neither car will be quicker than the other from those speeds (well, the lower weight of the M3 may help it)

used these graphs

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007...

http://www.acadiaforum.net/temp/camaro/HP_Curves.g...

Forgive me if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, but you do realise the M3 graph is in Nm and the LS engine one is in lb-ft?

The LS engine's peak torque is over 550Nm, and the M3's goes along at around 400Nm.

Yes, I was talking about power, not torque. I was saying that at say 40mph in 6th the M3 produces about the same power as the camaro would. Sure, it had less torque but if the gearing is the same its always revving (8400/6500) times more. Meaning at any given time it doesn't need as much torque to get the same power.

e.g. 35mph in 6th gives 17.5% max rpm in either car. that's 1470rpm in the M3 and 1135rpm in the camaro. at 1500rpm M3 is producing 70bhp, at just over 1100rpm the camaro is making about the same, if anything, slightly less if those diagrams are correct.

does this mean the M3 has more "low down grunt" than a V8 muscle car?

Edited by E38Ross on Friday 2nd November 20:17

[LuS1fer]

Cyrus1971 said:

That is a fair question. For me it is about the quality of the engineering, the sophistication of thought, the materials and sheer engineering clout that woes me to a smaller displacement and high output. There is something lazy and basic about displacement as a method for increasing power or torque. The technical challenge it placed on the people who made it.

Sure but again at what cost and the LS engine is far smaller physically than the German engines and undoubtedly lighter and sells for far less. If it was that easy to do, you can bet your bottom Euro that the Germans would be making one. Ultimately, there is just as great a challenge in making so much power with far fewer moving parts and as we have seen, even with all the technical wizardry in the world, there is still no clear advantage.

[300bhp/ton]

E38Ross said:

hang on....all the American car fans on here had me believing that European cars were all fat and heavy....this weighs over 100kgs more than a "lardy" German sports saloon.

Also....having done it, an E92 M3 will trundle along at 30mph in 6th too. in fact, i've just had a look at the torque curves, assuming both cars 6th gears are geared to 200mph....at 30-40mph neither car will be quicker than the other from those speeds (well, the lower weight of the M3 may help it)

used these graphs

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007...

http://www.acadiaforum.net/temp/camaro/HP_Curves.g...

Looking at those graphs I see this:

	1500rpm	2000rpm	HP @ 1500rpm	HP @ 2000rpm
BMW	280nm/206ft-lb	335nm/247ft-lb	58.8bhp	94bhp
Camaro	340ft-lb	350ft-lb	97bhp	133bhp

To me that's quite a difference in performance.

[300bhp/ton]

E38Ross said:

does this mean the M3 has more "low down grunt" than a V8 muscle car?

Edited by E38Ross on Friday 2nd November 20:17

nah, you just need to look at the graphs again so you can see where you went wrong

[PascalBuyens]

boardtweet said:

Its a nice looking car until you see the interior a steering wheel straight out of a Vauxhall Insignia

That steering wheel was introduced on the '12 models... because some people complained that the custom made "deep dish" steering wheel wasn't comfortable enough on long distances.

I personally love it...

[Matt Harper]

Has this bad-boy surfaced in the UK yet - Camaro SS 1LE. ZL1 from the gearbox back (includes springs, shocks, wheels (virtually), brakes, adjustable camber/castor, prop, diff, half shafts etc) - and all for $32.5K. Bargain - and the Boss 302 now has a serious contender for track bragging rights.

[PascalBuyens]

Prof Prolapse said:

I take it those of you who claim LHD isn't a hindrance to making progress don't do much overtaking then?

See my earlier post, I've had cars that had the steering wheel on the wrong side for both countries... You overtake in different places than you would with a "normally positioned" steering wheel. (i.e. slight right handers are ideal for overtaking in a RHD car, but you'd be stuck easily in a slight left hander...)

[PascalBuyens]

Matt Harper said:

Has this bad-boy surfaced in the UK yet - Camaro SS 1LE. ZL1 from the gearbox back (includes springs, shocks, wheels (virtually), brakes, adjustable camber/castor, prop, diff, half shafts etc) - and all for $32.5K. Bargain - and the Boss 302 now has a serious contender for track bragging rights.

It hasn't even surfaced officially in the US....

[PascalBuyens]

AdeTuono said:

I reckon it's well worth having double the number of valves, camshafts, variable valve timing, low-friction coatings and 4x the servicing costs for the extra 25 bhp.

My Camaro? 600bhp; just saying, like....

602hp and 558 lbs ft of torque.

And headers, more aggressive cams, smaller SC pulley and forged internals all on the "bucket list"... (want to go for a 4 figure at the wheels eventually)

[dvs_dave]

300bhp/ton said:

dvs_dave said:

which is saying something as the Camaro is hardly modern.

Where do people come up with crap like this?


Ok, so what parts of it aren't modern??

Oh god, your fanboyism is tedious to the extreme.

The zeta platform the car is based on was developed in the early 2000's. The LS series of motors dates back to the late 90's with only relatively minor updates since. Doesn't mean they bad, in fact quite the reverse.

So some pretty significant parts right there that by modern standard are old hat, and don't get me started on what you can't get as optional extras. Understand that what I class as a modern up to date car is something like the latest M5, or even the latest 3 series for example. What is essentially a re-bodied Holden Commodore from the last decade is not the latest and most modern of vehicles. To claim otherwise is simply delusional.

You need to step away from your self appointed role as PH's resident US car expert because very often you don't actually know what you're talking about and just end up looking a bit of a pillock.

[Matt Harper]

PascalBuyens said:

It hasn't even surfaced officially in the US....

Yes it has.

[Speed_Demon]

It's more entertaining because it's less capable.

That is a good thing though, imo.

[E38Ross]

300bhp/ton said:

E38Ross said:

hang on....all the American car fans on here had me believing that European cars were all fat and heavy....this weighs over 100kgs more than a "lardy" German sports saloon.

Also....having done it, an E92 M3 will trundle along at 30mph in 6th too. in fact, i've just had a look at the torque curves, assuming both cars 6th gears are geared to 200mph....at 30-40mph neither car will be quicker than the other from those speeds (well, the lower weight of the M3 may help it)

used these graphs

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007...

http://www.acadiaforum.net/temp/camaro/HP_Curves.g...

Looking at those graphs I see this:

	1500rpm	2000rpm	HP @ 1500rpm	HP @ 2000rpm
BMW	280nm/206ft-lb	335nm/247ft-lb	58.8bhp	94bhp
Camaro	340ft-lb	350ft-lb	97bhp	133bhp

To me that's quite a difference in performance.

Well done on missing my point completely. Why compare rpm for rpm when one engine revs way higher than the other. Go back again and compare percentage of max rpm and come back. Eg 1500rpm of camaro is over 23% max rpm yet that's like 2k rpm in the M3. M3 makes 94bhp at that and camaro making 97bhp at that so hardly any difference if they're geared to the same max speed.