RE: Robot car closes on driver track times
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
Indeed, I get that, but who is going to calibrate and teach it what ice might look like in ALL the numerous situations it might come across?
It's is these elements that are still very tricky in AI terms. ...
In fact, these are the elements where the computer is stronger than humans. There are only 6 degrees of freedom for each poing of contact, and another 6 for the sprung mass, and for each of them, the equations are well known. It's is these elements that are still very tricky in AI terms. ...
You only have to take into account the dynamic friction factor in two dimensions and the transmited weight in all four wheels. Afterwards, it's only an issue of measuring that friction thousands of times a second and acting accordingly. You can ask the F1 drivers about the accuracy of their simulators, and making a computer run ideally in a circuit in one of them isn't very different to judging how the car would react given the driver input.
All in all, I think that it'd be possible for a computer to best a human driver in a matter of months, given enough funding and a perfectly digitised circuit. It's only a couple orders of magnitude more complex than an ABS brake system and no one can question that a computer is more able than a pilot while braking in wet conditions.
otolith said:
Seems reasonable - since the question is about lap times on a race track - to assume that bus stops, pensioners, etc are out of scope 
Indeed.It's pretty crappy that they can't beat a human already with the lack of limitations they have. Obviously this betrays how far behind the computers are even with masses of things in their favour!
From the looks of things they are not even scanning the track and responding to it 'freshly' each time, they are clearly just logging GPS location and recursively adding speed where possible, obviously with a feedback system from sensors, not just a pure command input.
You would imagine that the consistency and historical reference abilities of a computer would mean it could tangibly increase or decrease it's speed, or yaw rate, or whatever else perfectly to find those extra 100ths all around the track where possible.
Given they are 'within seconds' on average lap times that is still quite slow!
Cripes, even AI in racing games on computers has to be given 10% more grip or power or whatever else so it can be competitive, and that's in virtual space!
However you look at it computers have got a loooong way to go until they can be used in cars and depended upon in my view
Dave
ScoobieWRX said:
They'll need a lot more than 3 computers in the end to mimic the reactions, thoughts and experience of a human.
Computers may be able to super multi-task all day long every day but they don't have the deft and instinctive touch of a professional human driver, nor can they make an on the spot decision based upon the driving conditions, steering feel and sensation a pro driver uses to action and control inputs.
Computers may be able to super multi-task all day long every day but they don't have the deft and instinctive touch of a professional human driver, nor can they make an on the spot decision based upon the driving conditions, steering feel and sensation a pro driver uses to action and control inputs.
The decisions made by an onboard computer are likely to be limited only by the quality of the data sent to them from sensors and the software algorithms.
Sensors on F1 cars record 1000's of channels, some of these are recorded over 1000 time a second. Using these sensors to monitor aspects such as g-levels, suspension deflection, wheel speeds and employing a range of high res. imaging hardware, it would be entirely possible for a computer to drive the 'perfect lap' within its own constraints.
The only issue I can imagine would be that you'd need a very fast processor for dealing with the imaging side.
A while ago, when an automatic landing system was being developed for civil aircraft, during testing it was shown to have a problem. It was too good - it landed consistently in the same place and was wearing the runway. They had to introduce a random factor to the landing position.
Computers will lap faster than drivers, it's just a matter of time until someone develops the system.
I wonder if we will see multiple classes at Le Mans for AI?
Cotty said:
WCZ said:
how long before manufacturers are using robots to get the fastest ring times possible? within 10 years IMO
How about if they replaced the ring taxi drivers with robots, would you go for a ride?they cant write a bug free OS let alone code that can deal with the infinite number of variables involved in driving, good luck to the beta testers
Am sure there's a pun in there somewhere about Audi drivers and comparisons to computers.
I'm sure the vast majority of Audi TT drivers have no idea what oversteer or understeer is, although their car will try to teach them the latter at every possible opportunity.
Audi road cars: Motility for the skill-less masses.
I'm sure the vast majority of Audi TT drivers have no idea what oversteer or understeer is, although their car will try to teach them the latter at every possible opportunity.
Audi road cars: Motility for the skill-less masses.
I would take a decent performing computer (not the one breaking lap records) any day over the average driver.
God, by the recent youtube clips of drivers in Russia, having a computer onboard there to replace the driver should be mandatory!
It is complex, there is a lot of data to process but it is far from impossible. The only explanation I can see for it not being mainstream already is not being commercially viable because otherwise, I can't understand any reason why one could say: it is impossible with the current tech.
Things like ran over a child or a old man don't even compute on your brain in case of an emergency maneuver. There is no time in many scenarios. Plenty of drivers just slam on the brakes and don't even look around for a escape route. We are simply not trained to deal with it. Another thing quite noticeable in many cases is that after the first contact, some people just stop braking/steering all together. Some are incapable of it because they lost conscience, others just can't find the brakes or they are just overwhelmed by the experience.
A machine would coupe much better with these scenarios. If you put in the mix the ability to communicate almost instantaneously the car intents (I'm going to cross the junction now, I'm going to overtake you, etc), something that today is probably 99% of the cause of all accidents (in my view), you should end up in a much safer environment.
Of course there will be situations that the software won't access correctly, there will be malfunctions, etc, etc... But we do see that everyday with humans and we seem fine with it!
God, by the recent youtube clips of drivers in Russia, having a computer onboard there to replace the driver should be mandatory!
It is complex, there is a lot of data to process but it is far from impossible. The only explanation I can see for it not being mainstream already is not being commercially viable because otherwise, I can't understand any reason why one could say: it is impossible with the current tech.
Things like ran over a child or a old man don't even compute on your brain in case of an emergency maneuver. There is no time in many scenarios. Plenty of drivers just slam on the brakes and don't even look around for a escape route. We are simply not trained to deal with it. Another thing quite noticeable in many cases is that after the first contact, some people just stop braking/steering all together. Some are incapable of it because they lost conscience, others just can't find the brakes or they are just overwhelmed by the experience.
A machine would coupe much better with these scenarios. If you put in the mix the ability to communicate almost instantaneously the car intents (I'm going to cross the junction now, I'm going to overtake you, etc), something that today is probably 99% of the cause of all accidents (in my view), you should end up in a much safer environment.
Of course there will be situations that the software won't access correctly, there will be malfunctions, etc, etc... But we do see that everyday with humans and we seem fine with it!
Edited by vpinto on Monday 5th November 18:58
Edited by vpinto on Monday 5th November 18:59
Once in a while I wish scientists would go to the pub / bar, drink a few beers and conclude that what they are working on is not going to improve people's living experience. I look forward to the day when we are all being driven about by robotic electric vehicles, with as much anticipation as I would having my gentleman's sausage trapped in a door. Go invent something useful.
Once these cars become possible then those that drive will be treated like smokers in order to crush any kind of pleasure.
We will all just die of something else, likely over eating. It is like going to the Gym. Productive people go to the gym to do something completely unproductive. Why not cycle somewhere, run somewhere and see something, help your neightbour mow their lawn, exercise your dog rther than getting nsomeone else to do it. We will all sit in driven cars playing games on our isampod's instead of enjoying driving. Aghh rant over.
Once these cars become possible then those that drive will be treated like smokers in order to crush any kind of pleasure.
We will all just die of something else, likely over eating. It is like going to the Gym. Productive people go to the gym to do something completely unproductive. Why not cycle somewhere, run somewhere and see something, help your neightbour mow their lawn, exercise your dog rther than getting nsomeone else to do it. We will all sit in driven cars playing games on our isampod's instead of enjoying driving. Aghh rant over.
I think we're missing the point a trifle here.
Humans are meant to do thing, not just press buttons and sit back n enjoy the ride.
I don't care If I'm slower or more at risk by spinning the wheel and pressing the pedals myself. I wanna live my life.
That said, for a technical exercise, it's clever.
Humans are meant to do thing, not just press buttons and sit back n enjoy the ride.
I don't care If I'm slower or more at risk by spinning the wheel and pressing the pedals myself. I wanna live my life.
That said, for a technical exercise, it's clever.
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